Sony forum area reorganization
 

Note from Admin: Scroll down for the discussion about reorganizing the entire Sony camcorder forum area...

Chris,

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...dyssey-7q.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...bc-2014-a.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xav...pressions.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dv-info-...-part-1-a.html

Can we get a new forum for the Sony PXW-FS7?

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

+1
AS more and more Cameras are coming out in the wild that would be great

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I would recommend a restructuring of the whole Sony section. Right now it's broken down by codec, AVCCAM, XDCam, XAVC, etc. Thats not really how people think about cameras. The Canon section is smartly put together. There is a section for the Cinema EOS cameras, a section for ENG-type cameras, a section for DSLRs, etc. They don't separate the C100 and the C300 simply because they use different codecs.

The Sony page should have a CineAlta section that contains, F55, F5, FS7, FS700, FS100. Then there should be a DSLR page for A7s, A99, etc. Then an ENG page for EX1, PMW-300, PXW-X200, etc.

To me that would be far more intuitive, sorting by "genre" of camera, not codecs.

Eric Petrie
provideoandtape.com
Lease The Canon C100 starting at $129 a month
Lease the Sony FS7 starting at $248 a month

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I agree with Eric. I find (and know others find) the current Sony section confusing. Would be great to use this opportunity to tidy it up and make it more intuitive.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

First let me say how much I appreciate the hard work that goes into making this board so valuable to all of us out there and I want to add "Around the World." I truly enjoy getting a wide perspective on all of the aspects of our work and DVINFO is excellent.
I would also like to join the Sony gang above and applaud the suggestion for a new structure.
Brian

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I agree wholeheartedly; a re-structuring has been long overdue. If anyone else has any organizational suggestions, I'm certainly open to hearing them.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I think what Eric said is what makes the most sense, and would second the suggestion.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

+1 with Eric. Camera users' interest normally lies first on the type or form factor of the cameras then the codec as the overall big picture for the image quality and then the medium they record on/output to as the determinant of the cost effectiveness of the whole system.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

+1 for Eric's suggestion. I can help moderate the FS7 forum.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Thanks, fellows -- I'm working this up.

It's been suggested to file the FS7 under CineAlta. However, it's listed on the Pro Sony USA site under XDCAM: https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-...oduct-PXWFS7K/

Meanwhile their CineAlta line-up seems to be the F65, F55, F5, F3, FS700 and FS100, according to https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/

Am I missing something? Is the FS7 not under the CineAlta brand?

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Also, I suppose there's not much point to a dedicated "4K category" since it's all gonna be 4K sooner or later. I like the idea of categorizing by body type. Must say though that I'm kinda stumped as to why the FS7 isn't branded CineAlta (just checked, and there's a big XDCAM badge right on the body).

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Never mind the branding, Chris, the form factor and how it's going to be used by people interested in it or already shooting with it is closer to the FS100/700, F5/55 rather than the ENG XDCAM cameras.

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I agree with you 100% Wacharapong -- but I think that category will be called "CineAlta and Large Single Sensor" just to make it right.

So that line-up will be: F65, F55, F7, F5, F3, FS700 and FS100. In other words, all CineAlta plus the FS7.

However, there are a few more camcorders with large sensors: the NEX-VG900, which is full frame A-mount, and the NEX-VG30, which are APS E-mount. Plus the NEX EA-50 which is also APS E-mount. And then the PXW X70 which has a 1.0" CMOS with a fixed lens. Technically they qualify as large single-sensor camcorders... do we include them in the same category, along with the FS7?

Shoulder mounts are easy -- there are six. Three are disc based (the F800, 700 and 850) and three are card based (the X500, 400 and 320). No problem there.

Sony Alpha, we'll put them all in there, A-mount and E-mount. Or should we separate those two sizes, like we do for Canon?

The handhelds are the tricky part. There are too many to drop into one category. Sony separates them into three groups: first there's "Broadcast & Production" (XDCAM), and then a group filed under "NXCAM & AVCHD," and finally the prosumer camcorders listed on their consumer site. We don't have to list them the way Sony does, especially since some of the consumer models are close twins of some of the pro versions. Here are those three groups of handhelds, including the previously mentioned "large single sensor" models:

Broadcast & Production XDCAM: Z100, X70, X180, X200 and PMW 300.

NXCAM & AVCHD: NX5, NX3/1, EA50, NX70, NX30 and -- technically shoulder mounts from junior college: MC2500, MC2000.

Pro Quality Camcorders: AX1, VG900, VG30, AX100B, CX900B.

I'm open to ideas about how we should set up the forum categories for this big batch of handhelds... help!

re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I had a look at the Spanish Sony site, and they have a pretty sensible category called ¨Digital Cinema Cameras¨ which include the F65, F23, F55, F7, F5, F3, FS700 and FS100.

Then XDCAM with the majority, which include both shoulder mount and handheld - i.e. PMW300, PDW F350,PMW Z100, PMW180, PDW 850, PXW160, X500,X 200 and the PXW 70, basically camera used as ENG.

The third is AVCHD including EA 50, VG900/30/20/10 NX5, NX3, NX70, NX30 and the MC series.

Lastly the A series - A7S, A series - 5x, and the prosumer camcorders - AX1, AX100B, CX900B

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I think that Paul has a pretty good breakdown....

"F(S) series" for the "pro" gear

P(xx) series for midline

Where it gets tricky is the "X's" - you have the RX (Cybershots) that are right on the border of a dedicated video camera, with XAVC-S codecs... the AX's (4K), the older CX/PJ series (consumer level, FHD and 4K) "Handycams". Instinctively, I think of the "1" class" (RX10, RX100, and AX100) to be in their own category, sort of... Almost forgot the NX's... though those may "age out" shortly?

Then to toss the whole thing in a ditch you've got the "old" Alphas with A mount, and A(xx) format, and the "NEW" Alphas that are E-mount, including the "old NEX" and now the A7 Full Frame series in it's many variations!

Part of the problem is that Sony itself has not been terribly consistent with their product nomenclature... and their naming/marketing scheme has undergone a lot of sudden "turns", at least when it comes to the "consumer" stuff.

I think it's safe that 4K will become more "standard", but there are products right now that CAN shoot 4K but don't... XAVC S is obviously replacing AVCHD, but I guess they are going slow waiting for higher speed media... and faster processors in enough quantity to put in the entire lineup?

OOPS, almost forgot the "action cams".... oy, what a mess!

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Cinealta is a Sony brand and also used with the EX1 which in the current proposal is an ENG. That confuses the namespace. A way to clean that up is to use industry terms:

Cinema:
ENG:
DSLR:

If you want to break up one of them into sub categories using some criteria like CODEC or Pro/Consumer, just further qualify the name with that criteria such as Pro Cinema ...

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Thanks for all that post, Dave -- the little Sony action cams will be relegated to our Micro / POV forum, for now at least.

I never quite "got" how or why the EX1 carried the CineAlta badge.

Any Sony camcorder that is *not* a handheld, is no problem as far as the forum structure is concerned. They'll go into these three categories:

CineAlta & Large Single Sensor (F65, F55, F7, F5, F3, FS700, FS100)

Shoulder Mount ENG / EFP (F800, 700, 850, X500, 400, 320)

Sony Alpha Series -- with A-mount and E-mount lenses, self explanatory.

The question is, how to organize some 17 handhelds. That's too many for one forum category. Break them up by codec? Fine. But what about the handhelds with large single sensors and E-mount lenses? (EA50, VG30 etc.) Where do we put those... with the Alphas, due to the lens mount?

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Step One completed... the old "Sony XDCAM HD" board has been renamed:

Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mount Forum at DV Info Net

Where it sits in the current listing line-up is going to change, though.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I doubt very much the namespace can be perfect and I'm always in favor of making information easier to find. I think the key (pardon the pun) is that users of that part of the DVInfo index have a camera in mind and are looking for the category that camera fits into. When I go there, I have the model name "EX1R" in mind. I don't have it's form factor, Media, CODEC or abstract category in mind. Of course all the models can't be listed, so a grouping of some kind is needed. Groupings that aren't much of a leap or abstraction of the camera are better. Noobs may not get "ENG" but everyone else would. Ultimately, its a one time problem. Once someone pokes around and learns how DVinfo categorizes the gear, they're good from then on. "Once learned, always remembered". My 2 cents.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Good point... I'm hoping that anyone *seriously* interested in owning a pro Sony XDCAM HD shoulder mount will already be more than familiar with the terms ENG / EFP. In fact, it's almost a barrier to entry, and I'm fine with that.

Well, we're all going to have to re-learn it! Because the categorization is indeed changing, for the better.

Step Two completed... the old "Sony XDCAM EX CineAlta" board has been renamed:

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds Forum at DV Info Net

Description: "Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 recording to SxS Express Card flash memory." Hmm, should we reference the EX3 and EX1 as well? I know some folks are still using them, but they're getting a bit long in the tooth, right?

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Chris, re your question, I'd suggest you do indeed mention EX1/EX1r & EX3, as there are still a load of people using those PMW cams, originally launched 5-7 years back.

Looking good! keep up the great work!

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Thanks, Andy -- done. Also:

Step Three completed... the old "Sony XAVC and XDCAM Camera Systems" board has been renamed:

Sony CineAlta and Large Single Sensor

Description: "Sony F65, PMW-F55, PXW-FS7, PMW-F5, PMW-F3, NEX-FS700, NEX-FS100." Merge those sub-fora? Hmmm...

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Guess that's Step Four... done:

Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 Forum at DV Info Net

...although it might get merged with some other CA / LSS cams into one large board... we'll see.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Thanks Chris. Love this place.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Well, it's raining here in CenTex so I'm stuck indoors anyway. Progress continues:

Sony NXCAM / AVCHD Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

-- that's for all the NXCAM handhelds, and their consumer version AVCHD equivalents. Home for the NX70, NX30, NX5, NX3/1, AX2000, etc. We'll host the HXR-MC2500 and 2000 in there as well, although technically they're shoulder mounts.

Also:

Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net

Right now this category has sub-fora, one for the NEX-EA50 (unless y'all think it belongs up in the Large Single Sensor group), one for the NEX-VG Series camcorders, and one for the Alpha, which gets the mirrorless a7s thrown in with the DSLR's. I couldn't see much point in separating them.

And:

Sony RX CyberShots and CX Series Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

Since we have enough existing threads to do it. RX together with CX, hope that's okay with everybody.

Now: where the heck do I put the PXW X70??

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

This is going to help many people.... I sincerely appreciate the PXW-X70 forum here in DVinfo. I'm looking forward for more great threads for my new X70. Thanks and keep up the great work. Ray

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Weird. I only noticed this thread once the forums had been reorganised. :-P

Makes sense to me.

Andrew

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Well, the work isn't quite finished yet. I still have to figure out... where the heck do I put the PXW X70??

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Tricky - maybe add it to the bottom of the 'XDCAM Pro Handhelds' list and stick the threads on the PXW-X70 in that forum area. I know it shares a LOT with the AX100 (soon even more when the 4K XAVC firmware update finally gets released by Sony) but that's what I suggest...after all, it has XDCAM written on the side!

But of course it does not record to SXS media...I agree, it's difficult and in many ways I would rather see all the posts on both AX-100 and X70 cams in the same forum area - but with Sony's habit of consumer, prosumer and semi-pro segregation in this area of the market, putting these cams in "pigeon holes" is never going to be easy.

Anyone got a better suggestion for Chris?

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I would agree with Andy - XDCAM Pro Handhelds - thats where it appears in the Sony site.

Of course, Sony doesn't help with its camera lineup, but that would appear logical to me - now of course if the ¨Sony CineAlta and Large Single Sensor¨was renamed to Sony Digital Cinema Cameras, it would take away the ambiguity with the both PMW X70 single large sensor, and the EX1 and EX3 Cine Alta badge......

Well done, Chris, for helping to make some sense of the mix!

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

That's a VERY good idea Paul. Hopefully Chris can tweak that forum name.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Yes, I think that's a great idea, thanks.

I really don't want to merge the X70 threads into the XDCAM pro handhelds forum. I'm afraid it'll get lost in there. The other 6,000 topics in that board all deal with XDCAM EX and SxS cards and that's not what the X70 is. So i think the existing X70 forum is going to get re-named to something like "Sony 4K Handhelds," and we'll mix in the FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100 (the FDR-AX100 is already in there). I mean, it ain't 4K yet, but it's gonna be.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

ENG and shoulder-mount designation comment. After following this thread and reading the posts I can't help but reminisce a bit.

Once upon a time it was the "real photographers" who used 8" x 10" cameras and the 4" x 5" was typically called a press camera. In all the old black & white Hollywood movies if they wanted to have a press core showing there'd be all these guys (wearing hats) with their 4 x 5s using flash bulbs.

Time moved on and around the late 1950s the 4 x 5 format became the large format and TLR (Twin Lens Reflex) cameras came in along and the "miniature" 35mm format" which had actually been around since the 1930s but now became really popular. This is for still cameras. What the news reels showed the Press using for video cameras were those huge 35mm cameras with huge spools and maybe a turret mount lens system set on a tripod.

With technology advancements the video cameras got smaller. At some point the news media (big three and/or local) made a switch over to video tape (Betamax and VCR) around the 1980s featuring big cams with large battery packs, but much smaller than the old 35mm cams. Then today the cams in popular ENG use have shrunk still further with shoulder-mount models, flash memory, and much smaller batteries.

The time is July, 2014: Then along comes what seems to be a game-changer with the portent of things to come: the PXW-X70. No longer a shoulder mount cam but very capable of being used as an ENG cam to cover local news. The x70 is right on the cusp of a new wave of cams with impressive specs. JVC will have their GY-HM200 shortly and the rumor mill has it that Canon will come up with something in this market group, too. And all with OIS (shoulder mount not as important) and 4K capability (better for editing).

So what classifies a cam as an ENG cam? Three rings? Shoulder-mount? Heck, we're seeing more and more video on the evening news shot with smart phones that everybody's got. The story is king. For news interviews and reporting, the broadcast companies are penny-pinchers so one-man (person) crews are one way to go and the x70 genre seem to be where things appear be headed, especially with local news companies.

What is amazing is the quality one gets now with the new smart phone cams. For their size they're really awesome, and they don't even have any rings!

Re: Sony model nomenclature: For me at least, I too have a really difficult time keeping track of the Sony models so a "type of cam" would be a good way to organize. I'm also ready for an upgrade but my need is for a versatile ENG-type-of-cam that is relatively compact like the X70 that is FCPX friendly. They're coming and it's difficult waiting.

As an aside, it would be nice to have a "What next cam to get?" section. Currently posts are in areas all over the place.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

There could be a downside to this technological evolution. The smaller the cams are that you use, the less that the public will see you as proper news media. Unless you want to blend in and not be noticed.

Andrew

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

^Guerrilla filmmaking is all about blending in. And with the YouTube generation, that's all they do.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I do a lot of video destined for YouTube, from small cameras all the way up to an FS100 fully rigged on a shoulder. I've had it go both ways, where we use an NX70 to blend in with the crowd but you hear people talking about you as the 'guys with the professional camera' and another time shooting with the same NX70 where some extras were asking us why we were using such a tiny camera. Once someone asked if we were doing a student film.

On the other end of the spectrum, walking around with a giant FS100 rig and talent that has a wireless mic (and maybe a BTS photog) we often get, 'Which news station are you with?' and then people balk that we'd use such a huge camera for YouTube. In those situations a camera on your shoulder (even 2x as heavy) beats the NX70/X70 sized handheld cameras if you are doing ENG work for hours at a time. The handful of times I've used 'real' ENG shoulder cams I was amazed at how perfectly balanced they were. Too bad my producers like the shallow DOF look.

Point being, the X70 is not an ENG camera.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

Having been in this field since 1982 and owned every imaginable pro camera, the days are over in the public's eye judging a pro by the size of a camera. Truly over except in my mind. :-)🙈

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

It may be that a good ENG cam is reaching a size where it can't go much smaller. The optics with OIS and the sensors take up a fair amour of internal space of the cam and shrinking the optics will be really difficult.

The glass itself really hasn't changed much in size in the past 50 years. Throw in the OIS and sensors and it adds to the internal volume. In order to have some control rings and various buttons the body shouldn't get much smaller.

In the old days of 35mm there was focus, f/stop, shutter speed, and ASA/DIN settings. Life was easy. Today, well …. it's mind boggling. Who ever heard of knee settings???


[Editorial comment: now for some fun]

If one is really concerned about the public image then they have to dress it up and act the part:

1. Start with the car with "King TV News" (or whatever the news media name is) plastered on the sides and trunk lid.

2. The pro videographer always wears black video vest. In winter have a black NASCAR-type jacket with red pin-striping. Plaster the sleeves with logos and of course the network proudly emblazoned on the back. Top it off with a black hat with the embroidered patch featuring the company logo, black pants, shoes, and definitely black socks. Headset over the hat and a belt pack around the waist.

3. The cam would have a camera cage or rig with an iKan field monitor, recorder, and all the new fancy electronic goodies that are must- have or in vogue attached and wired up. Throw in an audio case slung over the shoulder.

4. The interviewer has a hand-held RØDE mic (a plug to support our sponsors) with the company name or broadcast letters on four sides and maybe a clipboard or notepad to reference. [Doesn't have to have anything written on the note pad because nobody is going to see it anyway.]

4. Maybe Sony, (this was originally on the Sony board), will donate some embroidered patches for finishing touches. (If you're in the USA south then add STP and Pennzoil patches) [Ed: duck!]

"Back to you" (isn't that what they say to the anchor? Or is the weather next?)

If after all this, if they can't tell you're pro news media I don't know what will.

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

I'm sitting here looking at a PDW-F350 which is most certainly shoulder mount ENG type and sports the CineAlta badge on the side - so which of your categories does this fit into ?

Also , no one has so far mentioned DV/DVCAM/HDV cameras which a lot of people still use .

Re: Sony forum area reorganization
 

So the final approach that I took to organizing the Sony boards was to ask the question, "what is it first and foremost?"

I've never been quite sure as to how or why a particular camcorder is badged as CineAlta -- such as the EX1 -- or not badged CineAlta -- such as the FS7. Eventually it all boiled down to putting like with like. As most CineAlta cams (but not all, re: F350) are Digital Cinema configs with large single sensors, they went into a category called "Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems," per the suggestion of Paul Wood above.

It made more sense to do it that way rather than rally things around the CineAlta badge. Your F350 is first and foremost a shoulder mount ENG camera, so we designated a board just for that purpose: "Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts."

First and foremost they are tape-based, so they all live at "Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems." The only reason why they weren't mentioned in this thread is because I didn't need any help figuring them out... I knew already where they were going.

What I wasn't sure about was how to split up all the handhelds (answer: one area for XDCAM, another for NXCAM / AVCHD), and whether or not we should label the cine cams forum as being a CineAlta board (answer: no -- because too many CA cams like the F350 don't fit that type, and the FS7 which does fit that type is not CA).

Here's how it stands currently:

Category: Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XAVC PMW-F5 / F55 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NXCAM NEX-FS700 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NXCAM NEX-FS100 CineAlta Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony ENG / EFP Shoulder Mounts Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony NXCAM / AVCHD Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

Category: Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony Alpha Mirrorless and DSLR Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NEX-EA50 (all variants) Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900 Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony RX CyberShots and CX Series Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net

Category / Forum: Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z7 / HVR-S270 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z5 / HDR-FX1000 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-Z1 / HDR-FX1 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-HD1000 Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion Forum at DV Info Net
-- subforum: Sony TRV950 / PDX10 Companion Forum at DV Info Net

Finally, under "most Recent Additions," there's this:
-- Sony PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100 Forum at DV Info Net

I gotta do something about it (see my earlier whining in this thread). Meanwhile, although we have a category earmarked for NEX models, the FS700 and FS100 did not go there. That's because those two camcorders are first and foremost Digital Cinema Systems Cameras and therefore are "more like" the F3, F5 / F55 and FS7 than the VG30, VG900 or EA50. That's sorta the same issue as the CineAlta question -- where does it go? And the conclusion is that those two NEX cameras are more about Digital Cinema and less about NEX. Hope that makes sense,