DVD authoring issue at DVinfo.net

Alain Aguilar · January 2nd, 2005, 08:43 PM

I'm running out of patience with my DVD Encore Authoring. I created a title in AF, exported it uncompressed and inported in Premiere. Then rendered and exported it as a .M2v file transcoded at Hight quality 4MB VBR 2 Pass and Hight quality 7 MB 2 Pass. The result for both of these are the same: a low quality looking file with aliasing on the titles, graphics and video. The video doesn't look that bad but if you freeze a frame you can see the aliasing around the edges. Is this a Interlaced issue (XL1 video, 30i), how about the tiles created in AF?
What's the best way to go about this. My setup is :

Adobe Premiere Pro
Encore 1.0
Xl1 video shot at 30i
After Effects 6.0

Thanks

Rob Lohman · January 3rd, 2005, 05:12 AM

Yes, this certainly can be an interlacing issue. Keep in mind that
although newer DVD applications would like you to believe, encoding
MPEG2 and authoring a DVD is not the same thing.

Although the MPEG2 encoder in Encore/Premiere is okay, it isn't
a very good encoder. So you might be getting the best from the
encoder (or not, depending on a lot of things).

Keep in mind that your titles are progressive (is what I assume),
so those might go wrong if you encode the MPEG-2 as interlaced?

Also DVD's usually have an upper field interlace order where DV
is lower field, so if you are in interlaced this might flip things around.

You claim that the video doesn't look great. Where are you watching
it on? A dedicated DVD player to a TV/LCD/TFT/Plasma/Projector
or on a computer for example?

p.s. I've also moved your thread to our DVD forum!

Dan Euritt · January 3rd, 2005, 07:21 PM

>>>Hight quality 4MB VBR 2 Pass and Hight quality 7 MB 2 Pass. <<<

there is probably an issue with how you are setting up the mainconcept encoder... i've done a lot of mpeg2 encoding with that tool, you should never see an aliasing problem if it's done correctly.

the term "high quality" does not fit with a 4mb bitrate average... that dog won't hunt on most encoders... i would set the encoder up with 8mpbs max/6mbps average vbr, maybe 3.5mbps min, with the quality slider all the way over to best quality, two-pass of course... time isn't the issue here, quality is.

graphics are stills, so you can set the dvd authoring system up to encode 'em at the highest bitrate possible... at least 9mbps is what i use in reeldvd for encoding the graphics, but it may vary depending on whether you have audio playing in the background?? and you need to make absolutely sure that you sized 'em correctly to begin with... if they get resized in the dvd authoring app, the quality will be poor.

Alain Aguilar · January 3rd, 2005, 08:37 PM

Thank you for your replies. Rob I actually compared the original titles on the same computer monitor and then on a high Def TV monitor. Basically the uncompress video (titles) look very good, but the encoded files looks bad. I also thought that Premiere would not do a good encoding so I tried Encore. This gave me the same results. What affordable MPEG2 encoding software would you recommend?

Dan, I tried both settings 4 MB min 7 MB max and 7 MB min 9 MB max, 2 Pass. Would you recommend to export from AF with a specefic setting, such as Progressive 30 Frames or Interlaced?

Can I encode the titles ona different bit rate than the video and put all this together on the same dvd (video encoded at 4 MB and Titles encoded at 7 MB)

I will try the max bit rate, but any more imput would be great.

Thanks

Rob Lohman · January 4th, 2005, 05:07 AM

Encore uses the same engine as Premiere as does Vegas and
DVD Architect (they all use a MainConcept MPEG encoder):

Some thoughts by me on quality encoders and such:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36855
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36443
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=35447
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=6619 (include some prices, alas old ones)

Dan Euritt · January 4th, 2005, 08:28 PM

your mpeg2 frame rate should be exactly the same that you shot the video at... typically 29.97 interlaced for dv, right?

the stills(menu's, etc.) that are imported into your dvd authoring app are encoded by the dvd app... i'm not aware of any way to encode 'em seperately, because it's part of things like the menu generation... all you can do is to control the bitrate the menu is encoded at within the dvd authoring app, and yes, you should be able to encode the stills(menu) at any rate you want, the mpeg2 video encoded rate shouldn't matter.

one thing i would do is compare the standard premiere-generated title with what you are doing in af, make sure that there isn't a problem there... encode 'em both to a dvd for comparison.

wrt your anti-aliasing issues, if you are trying to proof ntsc 720x480 video on a 52" 1280 hi-def monitor, you'll never be satisfied... even hollywood titles look like crap on those monitors, they show every defect! also, don't ever try to judge moving ntsc video on a computer crt, it's the wrong approach.

Rob Lohman · January 5th, 2005, 03:38 AM

Yes, framerates should match.

A good encoder + authoring application should allow you to use
external files for your menu's, also since these can be motion
menu's (ie, a normal movie basically encoded into MPEG-2). A
still menu is still at least one frame encoded as an MPEG-2 movie
file. However the simpler applications will probably not support
getting this from another encoder indeed....

Alain Aguilar · January 7th, 2005, 05:56 PM

Thanks for your suggestions. Rob, I followed your threads on TMPGEnc. I'll give this a shot and see how it works.

I'm planning on using Magic Bullet to deiterlace, transform to 24 fps and change Gama/Motion Blur settings to play around with the look. My next question is (a very important one for me because I'm aware that this process could take days!!)

When I export my file from Premiere into AF, will Uncompressed Video or Animation be a better solution? After AF/Bullet, should I go (again) with Uncompress or Animation. I have 200 GB of SCSI Disk. The total lenght of my project is 1 Hour 40 Minutes.

After this is done, in a few days I guess, I'll try a segment of it with TMPENC and Premiere/Encore to see the results. For some reason the Interlaced video recorded with XL1 at 60i seems to be the problem.

Rob and Dan thanks you for your replies, I'll let you know how all this works out (After your suggestions of course)

Al

Lars Siden · January 8th, 2005, 02:44 AM

Hi all,

IMHO -> Canopus Procoder 2 is the best. Alas, "my" license is for the company of which I'm an employee... so I can only "test it".

It is out of my home-budget...it costs about 300 UK Pounds ( + taxes )

// Lazze

Rob Lohman · January 9th, 2005, 06:53 AM

Indeed Lars, it seems to be the best (affordable) encoder at this
moment, although TMPGEnc/CCE are a very close second <g>
(where TMPGEnc is MUCH cheaper!)

Alain Aguilar · January 9th, 2005, 03:50 PM

Just to get an idea, are these two encoders (Procoder 2 andTMPGEnc) better performers than Mainconcept?

Lars Siden · January 10th, 2005, 04:02 AM

Alain,

Procoder 2 is fastest and gives best quality.

TMPG is very good for its price!

// Lazze

Rob Lohman · January 10th, 2005, 04:06 AM

Alain: definitely, see the list:

1. ProCoder
2. CCE / TMPGEnc
3. MainConcept etc.

Alain Aguilar · January 21st, 2005, 01:25 PM

Let me update you guys and say thank you for your suggestions. I followed all your advices posted before and let me tell you that it's going pretty well so far. I used Magic Bullet to deinterlace and color correct my 1 hour and 30 minutes flix. I then exported the file with Animation compression. The result was a 150 GB file. The resulting video is free of flickering and interlacing artifacts. The titles are nice and crispy too. I got a hold of Procoder 2.0; right now is encoding the file into a MPEG 2, 16:9 (upper frame first) with 6 Mb br, 8 Mb br Max and 3 MB br min. Total rendering time will be 12 hours (Encore or Premiere would take twice that time). It should be done tomorrow. I'll post the final results when I create the DVD and watch it on the big screen.

By the way After Ef. 6.5 with MB took 113 hours to render the original file. The computer being used for this is a Dual Xeon 3.0 Ghz, 4 GB Ram (Dell Server).

Alain Aguilar · January 23rd, 2005, 09:08 AM

The MB deinterlace and Look Suite has given my video a totally cool new look. However, I'm still a little confused on how deinterlacing works. After MB, the video is deinterlaced and deartifacted. When this is exported does it becomes progressive. I ask because Procoder has an option to choose the the source format as Upper-Field First-Lower Filed First or Not Interlaced. and the target has the same options. Please let know If there is a thread or article that explains this process.

Thanks

January 2nd, 2005, 08:43 PM	#1
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	DVD authoring issue I'm running out of patience with my DVD Encore Authoring. I created a title in AF, exported it uncompressed and inported in Premiere. Then rendered and exported it as a .M2v file transcoded at Hight quality 4MB VBR 2 Pass and Hight quality 7 MB 2 Pass. The result for both of these are the same: a low quality looking file with aliasing on the titles, graphics and video. The video doesn't look that bad but if you freeze a frame you can see the aliasing around the edges. Is this a Interlaced issue (XL1 video, 30i), how about the tiles created in AF? What's the best way to go about this. My setup is : Adobe Premiere Pro Encore 1.0 Xl1 video shot at 30i After Effects 6.0 Thanks __________________ Alain

January 3rd, 2005, 05:12 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Yes, this certainly can be an interlacing issue. Keep in mind that although newer DVD applications would like you to believe, encoding MPEG2 and authoring a DVD is not the same thing. Although the MPEG2 encoder in Encore/Premiere is okay, it isn't a very good encoder. So you might be getting the best from the encoder (or not, depending on a lot of things). Keep in mind that your titles are progressive (is what I assume), so those might go wrong if you encode the MPEG-2 as interlaced? Also DVD's usually have an upper field interlace order where DV is lower field, so if you are in interlaced this might flip things around. You claim that the video doesn't look great. Where are you watching it on? A dedicated DVD player to a TV/LCD/TFT/Plasma/Projector or on a computer for example? p.s. I've also moved your thread to our DVD forum! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 3rd, 2005, 08:37 PM	#4
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	Thank you for your replies. Rob I actually compared the original titles on the same computer monitor and then on a high Def TV monitor. Basically the uncompress video (titles) look very good, but the encoded files looks bad. I also thought that Premiere would not do a good encoding so I tried Encore. This gave me the same results. What affordable MPEG2 encoding software would you recommend? Dan, I tried both settings 4 MB min 7 MB max and 7 MB min 9 MB max, 2 Pass. Would you recommend to export from AF with a specefic setting, such as Progressive 30 Frames or Interlaced? Can I encode the titles ona different bit rate than the video and put all this together on the same dvd (video encoded at 4 MB and Titles encoded at 7 MB) I will try the max bit rate, but any more imput would be great. Thanks __________________ Alain

January 4th, 2005, 05:07 AM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Encore uses the same engine as Premiere as does Vegas and DVD Architect (they all use a MainConcept MPEG encoder): Some thoughts by me on quality encoders and such: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36855 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36443 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=35447 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=6619 (include some prices, alas old ones) __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 5th, 2005, 03:38 AM	#7
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Yes, framerates should match. A good encoder + authoring application should allow you to use external files for your menu's, also since these can be motion menu's (ie, a normal movie basically encoded into MPEG-2). A still menu is still at least one frame encoded as an MPEG-2 movie file. However the simpler applications will probably not support getting this from another encoder indeed.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 3rd, 2005, 07:21 PM	#3
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	>>>Hight quality 4MB VBR 2 Pass and Hight quality 7 MB 2 Pass. <<< there is probably an issue with how you are setting up the mainconcept encoder... i've done a lot of mpeg2 encoding with that tool, you should never see an aliasing problem if it's done correctly. the term "high quality" does not fit with a 4mb bitrate average... that dog won't hunt on most encoders... i would set the encoder up with 8mpbs max/6mbps average vbr, maybe 3.5mbps min, with the quality slider all the way over to best quality, two-pass of course... time isn't the issue here, quality is. graphics are stills, so you can set the dvd authoring system up to encode 'em at the highest bitrate possible... at least 9mbps is what i use in reeldvd for encoding the graphics, but it may vary depending on whether you have audio playing in the background?? and you need to make absolutely sure that you sized 'em correctly to begin with... if they get resized in the dvd authoring app, the quality will be poor.

January 4th, 2005, 08:28 PM	#6
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	your mpeg2 frame rate should be exactly the same that you shot the video at... typically 29.97 interlaced for dv, right? the stills(menu's, etc.) that are imported into your dvd authoring app are encoded by the dvd app... i'm not aware of any way to encode 'em seperately, because it's part of things like the menu generation... all you can do is to control the bitrate the menu is encoded at within the dvd authoring app, and yes, you should be able to encode the stills(menu) at any rate you want, the mpeg2 video encoded rate shouldn't matter. one thing i would do is compare the standard premiere-generated title with what you are doing in af, make sure that there isn't a problem there... encode 'em both to a dvd for comparison. wrt your anti-aliasing issues, if you are trying to proof ntsc 720x480 video on a 52" 1280 hi-def monitor, you'll never be satisfied... even hollywood titles look like crap on those monitors, they show every defect! also, don't ever try to judge moving ntsc video on a computer crt, it's the wrong approach.

January 7th, 2005, 05:56 PM	#8
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	Thanks for your suggestions. Rob, I followed your threads on TMPGEnc. I'll give this a shot and see how it works. I'm planning on using Magic Bullet to deiterlace, transform to 24 fps and change Gama/Motion Blur settings to play around with the look. My next question is (a very important one for me because I'm aware that this process could take days!!) When I export my file from Premiere into AF, will Uncompressed Video or Animation be a better solution? After AF/Bullet, should I go (again) with Uncompress or Animation. I have 200 GB of SCSI Disk. The total lenght of my project is 1 Hour 40 Minutes. After this is done, in a few days I guess, I'll try a segment of it with TMPENC and Premiere/Encore to see the results. For some reason the Interlaced video recorded with XL1 at 60i seems to be the problem. Rob and Dan thanks you for your replies, I'll let you know how all this works out (After your suggestions of course) Al __________________ Alain

January 8th, 2005, 02:44 AM	#9
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	MPEG Encoder Hi all, IMHO -> Canopus Procoder 2 is the best. Alas, "my" license is for the company of which I'm an employee... so I can only "test it". It is out of my home-budget...it costs about 300 UK Pounds ( + taxes ) // Lazze

January 9th, 2005, 06:53 AM	#10
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Indeed Lars, it seems to be the best (affordable) encoder at this moment, although TMPGEnc/CCE are a very close second <g> (where TMPGEnc is MUCH cheaper!) __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 9th, 2005, 03:50 PM	#11
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	Just to get an idea, are these two encoders (Procoder 2 andTMPGEnc) better performers than Mainconcept? __________________ Alain

January 10th, 2005, 04:02 AM	#12
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	Alain, Procoder 2 is fastest and gives best quality. TMPG is very good for its price! // Lazze

January 10th, 2005, 04:06 AM	#13
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Alain: definitely, see the list: 1. ProCoder 2. CCE / TMPGEnc 3. MainConcept etc. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 21st, 2005, 01:25 PM	#14
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	Let me update you guys and say thank you for your suggestions. I followed all your advices posted before and let me tell you that it's going pretty well so far. I used Magic Bullet to deinterlace and color correct my 1 hour and 30 minutes flix. I then exported the file with Animation compression. The result was a 150 GB file. The resulting video is free of flickering and interlacing artifacts. The titles are nice and crispy too. I got a hold of Procoder 2.0; right now is encoding the file into a MPEG 2, 16:9 (upper frame first) with 6 Mb br, 8 Mb br Max and 3 MB br min. Total rendering time will be 12 hours (Encore or Premiere would take twice that time). It should be done tomorrow. I'll post the final results when I create the DVD and watch it on the big screen. By the way After Ef. 6.5 with MB took 113 hours to render the original file. The computer being used for this is a Dual Xeon 3.0 Ghz, 4 GB Ram (Dell Server). __________________ Alain

January 23rd, 2005, 09:08 AM	#15
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	The MB deinterlace and Look Suite has given my video a totally cool new look. However, I'm still a little confused on how deinterlacing works. After MB, the video is deinterlaced and deartifacted. When this is exported does it becomes progressive. I ask because Procoder has an option to choose the the source format as Upper-Field First-Lower Filed First or Not Interlaced. and the target has the same options. Please let know If there is a thread or article that explains this process. Thanks __________________ Alain