Canon EOS Rebel T2i / 550D Production Model HD Samples at DVinfo.net

Canon EOS Rebel T2i / 550D Production Model HD Samples · February 25th, 2010, 03:40 AM

James Miller has been kind enough to offer some samples from the footage he shot for his first test video:

Canon 550D / Rebel T2i Production Camera First Tests / Late Dusk to Dark - 800 to 1600 ISO / RT 0:03:10

Paul Curtis · February 25th, 2010, 03:53 AM

Very useful examples

What's interesting is that the 480 samples taken from the centre of the sensor don't look like they have the line skipping (as expected) and therefore wouldn't suffer from moire as much.

However the big question is why can't canon take 1080p from the centre of the sensor? That would be much more useful. I think the effective crop of that would be around 2.5 - 3 but no line skipping.

I wonder if that's possible through a firmware upgrade?

cheers
paul

James Miller · February 25th, 2010, 04:08 AM

Re. the crop mode, I found that normal sharpness levels suit the crop mode as opposed to 1080 resolution with the sharpness all the way down. Not show in these test files.

Paul Curtis · February 25th, 2010, 04:19 AM

James,

Can you see the crop mode being useful for anything? Personally, i can't, purely a tease for a 1080p crop mode, which would be more useful.

However it'd be interesting to confirm that it doesn't exhibit moire artefacts as well as seeing how the 550D performs in general with these issues. Perhaps they have a different OLPF which helps a bit or perhaps there are some other subtle changes. I suspect it would be exactly the same as the 7D though...

thanks for your tests
paul

James Miller · February 25th, 2010, 04:47 AM

Hi Paul, the aliasing & moiré seems to be there, especially in the water reflections on the pavement. The diagrams of the CMOS unit shows a single lowpass filter but that would need confirmation.

As for the usefulness of the crop mode, apart from a mock '24' look, getting 6 crops on one 1080 frame, I suppose maybe the odd inset layer on video, product demonstration/tutorial. I don't think much of the press pack would carry one for just this feature but at $800 and the small size you could pop it in a big pocket.

I'm doing some daylight tests now.

James

Konrad Haskins · February 25th, 2010, 06:59 AM

Very nice and helpful. Thank You James.

Jenn Kramer · February 25th, 2010, 10:16 AM

We have some new files up from James, linked above. Thanks again!

Paul Curtis · February 25th, 2010, 11:31 AM

James,

That's really useful, 0246 shows everything that's wrong with these cameras which is such a shame! Purple and teal moire over the slate roof and brickwork. Shimmering lines at the top of the van and the moving car. It's shocking! I think when we look at stills we forget that it's the movement that really shows everything.

Having said that i may upgrade my old canon anyway, i can justify it for the stills alone and perhaps there are a few B shots these can be used with.

And i suppose there is a temptation to see if the OLPF can be replaced with something just for video (and obviously ruin the stills side at the same time). But it's way cheaper than a 7D!

How are you finding it, and what are you able to compare with?

thanks
paul

James Miller · February 25th, 2010, 12:44 PM

Hi Paul,

I pushed that clip with in camera sharpening two clicks right past centre to bring out the aliasing.

My other DSLR is the 5DMK2, the images out of the 550D play better, possibly due to the frame rates and just feels smoother than the 5DMK2. But the aliasing is still the problem, and in 1280 its terrible and you even see it on the crop mode when you look for it.

With careful shots this camera is great, but the 5DMK2 is my favorite. When the frame rate firmware update is released it will fantastic.

As for the lowpass filter, I have been down this road and had made a additional filter for the 5DMK2. But to fight against the line skipping, or what ever process is used to down scale the video, you have to use a very heavy LP filter that cuts all the detail out of the picture, even then the aliasing is still there, just masked a little.

What they need is a sensor with bigger pixels and no or little micro gap between them, trade off would be a very low res pixel camera.

Paul Curtis · February 25th, 2010, 01:23 PM

James,

Okay about the sharpening. As you say the real underlying issue is the effective gaps between the pixels unless there is a really heavy LP on it (hence the caprock stuff). So in reality it is unlikely to be solved with new LP and be satisfactory.

It will be curious to see what Canon does with regard to video, afterall they could easily make a 1080p sensor in APS-C but i must assume the unit sales aren't worth it (compared to stills). So instead, perhaps we must wait for fast enough hardware to downsample the entire frame and have a single APS C sensor with dual functionality - stills for the volume and video as an aside.

I think it would be technically possible to minimise some of the effects in post, reduce the colouration and perhaps use scaling technology to smooth off stairstepped lines. It's worth a shot...

cheers
paul

James Miller · February 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM

If they had the internal power to process the raw data it would be great, but that would mean new hardware and expense, something not possible at the moment with these duel format cameras at that price point.

Balancing resolution, pixel pitch, sensor size, DOF, cost effectively must be a hard nut to crack.

But I am thankful in what we have at the moment, it's great being part of this advancing technology.

Trying to remove these sides effects in post is very hard, but by setting 0 on the in camera sharpness, low contrast, and a slight reduction in saturation you can minimise the results.

I have had limited success reducing the typical moiré red/blue shimmer with a custom picture profile reducing the saturation on these colours with the 5DMK2, I'll have to try the same with the 550D.

Erik Andersen · February 25th, 2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Curtis

Can you see the crop mode being useful for anything? Personally, i can't, purely a tease for a 1080p crop mode, which would be more useful.l

I see it as a tease for RAW video. If the 550D can output an SD crop, I'm betting the 5D Mark III will be able to do 1080 crop. Give Canon another 12-18 months and the 5DIV or 7DII will do RAW. Just speculation on my part, but I think it's reasonable to anticipate this.

If the future 5D or 7D support SDXC, who knows, maybe transfer and storage won't be such a problem.

Fergus Anderson · February 26th, 2010, 01:14 PM

If 480p crop is 7x magnification - what would 1080p magnification be on APS-c?

Emil Gustafsson Ryderup · February 27th, 2010, 08:40 AM

If I buy an Nikon series-E adapter, will pretty much every series-e lense with the camer withput problem. Or do I have to use just prime-lenses and could not use zooms or soemthing like that?

Or is it a perfect match?

John Novotny · March 25th, 2010, 10:08 PM

Just ordered mine, I'm going to use it as a back up for my 7D. Can't wait to try it.

February 25th, 2010, 04:47 AM	#5
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Hi Paul, the aliasing & moiré seems to be there, especially in the water reflections on the pavement. The diagrams of the CMOS unit shows a single lowpass filter but that would need confirmation. As for the usefulness of the crop mode, apart from a mock '24' look, getting 6 crops on one 1080 frame, I suppose maybe the odd inset layer on video, product demonstration/tutorial. I don't think much of the press pack would carry one for just this feature but at $800 and the small size you could pop it in a big pocket. I'm doing some daylight tests now. James Last edited by James Miller; February 25th, 2010 at 06:35 AM. Reason: spelling

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February 25th, 2010, 03:53 AM	#2
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	Very useful examples What's interesting is that the 480 samples taken from the centre of the sensor don't look like they have the line skipping (as expected) and therefore wouldn't suffer from moire as much. However the big question is why can't canon take 1080p from the centre of the sensor? That would be much more useful. I think the effective crop of that would be around 2.5 - 3 but no line skipping. I wonder if that's possible through a firmware upgrade? cheers paul

February 25th, 2010, 04:08 AM	#3
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Re. the crop mode, I found that normal sharpness levels suit the crop mode as opposed to 1080 resolution with the sharpness all the way down. Not show in these test files.

February 25th, 2010, 04:19 AM	#4
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	James, Can you see the crop mode being useful for anything? Personally, i can't, purely a tease for a 1080p crop mode, which would be more useful. However it'd be interesting to confirm that it doesn't exhibit moire artefacts as well as seeing how the 550D performs in general with these issues. Perhaps they have a different OLPF which helps a bit or perhaps there are some other subtle changes. I suspect it would be exactly the same as the 7D though... thanks for your tests paul

February 25th, 2010, 06:59 AM	#6
Konrad Haskins Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 148	Very nice and helpful. Thank You James.

February 25th, 2010, 10:16 AM	#7
Jenn Kramer Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 389 Images: 1	We have some new files up from James, linked above. Thanks again!

February 25th, 2010, 11:31 AM	#8
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	James, That's really useful, 0246 shows everything that's wrong with these cameras which is such a shame! Purple and teal moire over the slate roof and brickwork. Shimmering lines at the top of the van and the moving car. It's shocking! I think when we look at stills we forget that it's the movement that really shows everything. Having said that i may upgrade my old canon anyway, i can justify it for the stills alone and perhaps there are a few B shots these can be used with. And i suppose there is a temptation to see if the OLPF can be replaced with something just for video (and obviously ruin the stills side at the same time). But it's way cheaper than a 7D! How are you finding it, and what are you able to compare with? thanks paul

February 25th, 2010, 12:44 PM	#9
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Hi Paul, I pushed that clip with in camera sharpening two clicks right past centre to bring out the aliasing. My other DSLR is the 5DMK2, the images out of the 550D play better, possibly due to the frame rates and just feels smoother than the 5DMK2. But the aliasing is still the problem, and in 1280 its terrible and you even see it on the crop mode when you look for it. With careful shots this camera is great, but the 5DMK2 is my favorite. When the frame rate firmware update is released it will fantastic. As for the lowpass filter, I have been down this road and had made a additional filter for the 5DMK2. But to fight against the line skipping, or what ever process is used to down scale the video, you have to use a very heavy LP filter that cuts all the detail out of the picture, even then the aliasing is still there, just masked a little. What they need is a sensor with bigger pixels and no or little micro gap between them, trade off would be a very low res pixel camera.

February 25th, 2010, 01:23 PM	#10
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	James, Okay about the sharpening. As you say the real underlying issue is the effective gaps between the pixels unless there is a really heavy LP on it (hence the caprock stuff). So in reality it is unlikely to be solved with new LP and be satisfactory. It will be curious to see what Canon does with regard to video, afterall they could easily make a 1080p sensor in APS-C but i must assume the unit sales aren't worth it (compared to stills). So instead, perhaps we must wait for fast enough hardware to downsample the entire frame and have a single APS C sensor with dual functionality - stills for the volume and video as an aside. I think it would be technically possible to minimise some of the effects in post, reduce the colouration and perhaps use scaling technology to smooth off stairstepped lines. It's worth a shot... cheers paul

February 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM	#11
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	If they had the internal power to process the raw data it would be great, but that would mean new hardware and expense, something not possible at the moment with these duel format cameras at that price point. Balancing resolution, pixel pitch, sensor size, DOF, cost effectively must be a hard nut to crack. But I am thankful in what we have at the moment, it's great being part of this advancing technology. Trying to remove these sides effects in post is very hard, but by setting 0 on the in camera sharpness, low contrast, and a slight reduction in saturation you can minimise the results. I have had limited success reducing the typical moiré red/blue shimmer with a custom picture profile reducing the saturation on these colours with the 5DMK2, I'll have to try the same with the 550D.

February 26th, 2010, 01:14 PM	#13
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	If 480p crop is 7x magnification - what would 1080p magnification be on APS-c?

February 27th, 2010, 08:40 AM	#14
Emil Gustafsson Ryderup New Boot Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 24	If I buy an Nikon series-E adapter, will pretty much every series-e lense with the camer withput problem. Or do I have to use just prime-lenses and could not use zooms or soemthing like that? Or is it a perfect match?

March 25th, 2010, 10:08 PM	#15
John Novotny Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Magrath, AB Canada Posts: 35	Just ordered mine, I'm going to use it as a back up for my 7D. Can't wait to try it.