Thank you Tramm! real world Magic Lantern at work in the Chinese riots
 

Video: Uighur residents confront troops | World news | guardian.co.uk

A really quick thank you to Tramm for making my life much better, I'm writing this in between the rioting. I've been using magic lantern for all our pieces to camera with our reporter during the riots in Xinjiang, China. Also been using it bit in the demonstrations themselves.

The finished piece is a mixture of 5dmkII, Sony A1 and Reuters footage but even in low res on the web I think you can tell the 5dmkII stuff.

Dan

(ps - forgot to add there is a gallery of 5dmkII stills here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...ture=349978668)

Incredible. Please be safe Dan!

Wow! Be careful Dan!

Last night's 0.1.5 release might make things easier for you since it has the config file for your parameters and won't turn off the camera while you are setting up the shot, talent, mics, etc. Please let me know if you need hit any show-stopper bugs that need immediate fixing with either version.

Another video just went up thats almost all 5dmkII Video: Thousands of troops descend on Urumqi | World news | guardian.co.uk

The reporters voice is all magic lantern :)

Dan

Dan:

Such great news that you are able to make it all work in the field- amazing that you can concentrate on the camera setting with all that going on about you.... Nice shot inside the police car !!!

This is really super news for news gatherers. As we have all notices doing our public shoots, people seem to react a bit different thinking they are in front of a still cam, though by time you get that shoulder mounted, that may disappear.

Outstanding job, and Trammel Hudson can be proud that his creation is out there working already..

Now that things have calmed down a bit here in China we managed to get into a hospital and interview one of the victims. As I'm writing this it is on the front of the paper's website.
The aftermath of Urumqi | World news | Observer.co.uk

This was a great test for Magic Lantern and the Juicedlink CX231 that I'm testing. It's the sad story of newlywed Dong Yuanyuan who was attacked with her husband on the way to their honeymoon, she hasn't seen him since and he can't be found. She spoke very quietly for much of the time so it was a big ask for Magic Lantern and the CX231, agc would have been a nightmare. I used a Rode M2 mic plugged into Sennheiser EW100 transmitter module, would have liked a more discreet mic out of shot but under the circumstances a lav was out of the question. The setup worked really well although at one point she got suddenly louder and caused some clipping, I missed the limiters of my Sound Devices here but I'm prepared to sacrifice that for portability.

Dan

Dan, you many want to consider using the Sony PCM-D50 Portable recorder. The D50 has a rather unique limiter - reviewed here;
Review: Sony PCM-D50 Portable WAV Recorder - O'Reilly Media

To quote the reviewer;
"It works like this: the recorder creates two audio files during recording. One is written to memory, another — recorded 20dB down — is held in a buffer. If peaks exceed zero (i.e., maximum digital level), the recorder grabs a portion of the safety track and writes it to memory."

and "the PCM-D50 limiter isn't a conventional limiter (dynamics signal processor). As a result, it doesn't require extensive parameter controls (threshold, release, hold time, etc.) to operate transparently, and that makes it easy to use. This is far and away the most useful limiter I have ever encountered on a portable device."

and "You'll have to trust me that recordings I made at 24/96 sounded gorgeous; they are simply too large to post online."

The 20dB safety feature seems too good to be true.

Peter,

Thanks for that, actually I have a PCM-D50 over the Zoom H4n for that very reason and love it. Sadly its part of my 'proper' audio kit which I use with a Sound Devices Mix Pre, this is not really suitable for fast news situations where I'm working solo and there isn't enough time to mess around syncing audio in post.

Dan

One option might be to setup the same signal into both channels and have asymetric gains. That way you can have a low-volume track and a high-volume track. If you think that would be useful it would be fairly easy to add to the 0.1.6 release.

Tramm,

Genius, that would be useful for me if it could be turned on and turned off, maybe see what others say.

Also can you PM me your address, I'd like to send you some things :)

Dan

Actually this is what many sound recordists have been doing for years: Having a mono signal at asymetric gain on a stereo track.
Easyest way is just to allow L and R gains to be dialed in separately OR to have some sort of "-20db SAFE mode" for recording that allows immediate asymetric gain without thinking about it - normal (ML conf) levels at the right channel and -20db tack on the left.

This requires that you feed the camera with "streo mono" signal - common on 3.5mm mono mics like the TinyMike and Rode's VideoMic that have a mono signal but a stereo plug that feeds both channels.

Cheers,
T

Is the juicedlink set up with two signals like this? I would love dual gain control and it is time to start solving my audio issues so I can start getting a professional product.

Not quite... but all you'd need is an XLR splitter. You can control the gain of the two channels separately.

There are switches for moving each channel to left, right, or center, but they are downstream of the gain controls, so you still need the splitter.

Jon,

You beat me to it, a splitter is required but hopefully this will be redundant with the next version of Magic Lantern.

Dan

True. Separate gain on the channels is all we need, considering that the juicedLink lets you send a single input to both channels of the camera.

If magic lantern gives me audio capabilities that I can't have on my Sony V1 (one mic with two gain levels), something is going in the classified section.

Staggering the 5D internal gain would be fantastic and have potential benefits an external analog offset could not provide. Lowering the gain of the "pre amp" inside the 5D should give us a bit lower noise floor on the lower side rather than lowering the gain before it hits the 5D. Probably wouldn't be too much of an issue either way, if people only edit-in the lower level captured audio during the loudest passages that are causing overs on the higher recorded side. Some may choose to take an extended section of audio from the lower recorded side and raise the gain up in the relatively softer section between peaks, in which case, a less pre amplified/less noisy D5 audio capture would be preferred.

Mark

Is it possible to have an option in the firmware to take a mono signal and record it to both channels with different gains? I'm asking because the mic I'm using only have the mono plug but would love to use this new feature. If that is not possible, can I just rewire my cable from the mic to use a stereo plug with the signal to both channels without loss of audio quality and strength of the signal (I'm not always using a preamp so the signal is quite weak already)?

Dan,

I’m about to order either a Zoom H4n or a PCM-D50. Everything I read and samples I’ve heard make me think the Sony is the better unit. However I feel pushed toward the Zoom purely because it has XLR inputs, which the Sony lacks. How are you getting around that with the Sony? I realise I could use an XLR to TRS cable to connect a mic to the recorder, but wouldn’t that negate the advantages of XLR? Or doesn’t it matter?

Thanks.

I am not Dan but will offer my opinion. XLR connectors eliminate ground hum, allow you to have much longer runs of microphone cable, have nicer locking connectors & can carry phantom 48V power for pro microphones.

I bought the a Zoom H4n. The XLR connectors were a 'nice to have' but were not the major reason for my choice. Both the Sony & the Zoom are very, very good but the Sony is nearly twice as expensive (585 Euros vs. 333 Euros).

Jeremy,

Depends on your config, I use the Sony mostly to record from a either a Sound Devices or Juicedlink mixer and therefore not using XLRs.

For on camera mounting I think I would prefer the Zoom H4n for its lighter weight and XLRs.

As a stand alone recorder I much prefer the Sony, its well built and the intelligent limiter are great. The 'real' knobs for levels and audio monitoring are great too.

Also consider the bigger but nice Marantz PM661 which is supposed to have better preamps than the Zoom as well as proper level meters.

Given the progress Tramm is making I'm increasingly confident we won't need dual sound for run and gun soon. Just a nice mixer like the Juicedlink and in camera recording. But for top quality a seperate recorder will still be better I think.

Dan

Forgot to add that on a budget it will also be possible to use the minijack line out of these recorders to feed the 5DmkII (might still need a -10db or so PAD even with Magic Lantern used to reduce all the audio gain to zero), giving good in camera audio for either rapid editing or as clean track for sync. This is especially useful with the Sony or Zoom which both have really quite good internal mics, although you need a Softie as they are very sensitive to wind noise. I've heard someone suggest putting these recorders on the end of booms and using the internal mics.

Dan

I believe a 3.5mm mono plug will connect both the left and right input together, allowing you to record the same signal on both channels.

The splitter has the advantage of giving you mechanical knobs on the juicedLink to adjust the gain, while the software version saves the weight of carrying another heavy XLR cable. It is fixed in the source tree and will be in the 0.1.6 release.

The analog gain can not be adjusted per channel on the AK4646, but the digital gains can be set independently. The software change adds 'audio.dgain.l' and 'audio.dgain.r' configuration parameters and separate menu items for the left and right gains.

Since the Magic Lantern menu is getting too large, one of the other features in 0.1.6 will be separate audio, video, stills and debugging menus.

That’s pretty much the set-up I’m looking at putting together. Juicedlink + Magic Lantern for pure run and gun; plus Sony/Zoom for backup/ambient when possible/desirable; or Juicedlink into Sony/Zoom when audio is priority.

I think from what you and Nigel have said the Sony’s missing XLRs will be a non-issue for me, and I like the sound of the Sony’s limiter. One thing that concerns me a lot is wind noise. I get the impression it’s a particular problem with the Zoom: have you noticed that the Sony is better in this respect?

Thanks.

That's unfortunate. We can already record softly and apply digital gain in post. An XLR splitter or a pad on one of the mini-jack lines would be the better route.

I'm even thinking of mod'ing the juicedLink... Currently, I can switch Channel 1 to be Left, Right or Both. it would be cool if when routed Left it had high gain, on Right it would have low gain, and when on Both it would be high to the left and low to the right. I'd do the same in reverse to Channel 2. That would give me lots of options with no splitter or external pad needed.

I wonder if the design would lend itself to this mod...

Yes, the Sony looks like better unit. The way the limiter works is far, far superior - a different leage infact.

There is an optional XLR adapter box for the PCM-D50 (has phantom power) but pricey @ $499...

Edit - add link: Review: Sony PCM-D50 Portable WAV Recorder - O'Reilly Media
Edit2 - add additional review link: http://www.futuremusic.com/news/test...50_review.html

The Sony PCM-D50 has an optional $50 dead cat
Sony PCM-D50 Review - Full review of the Sony PCM-D50 digital recorder - FutureMusic TestDrive: Sony PCM50 Review

Need Final Verdict - Juicedlink+Magic Lantern OR Zoom H4n
 

Hello all,

I've been a lurker for quite a while, and this is one of my very rare times to make a post. First of all, thank you Tramm and to everyone else for putting so much time into researching audio issues for the 5D mkII - you have no idea how grateful I am for this.

I'm in a bit of a pinch, and I don't know if I'll get a solid reply in time, but here I go.

I have a video shoot scheduled in a few days and have been putting off purchasing my 'perfect' sound system as long as possible. Like a lot of people, I've been waving back and forth from the Zoom H4n and Juicedlink+ML.

I'm a solo filmmaker assigned to create two short documentary pieces over the next 3 months. I'm usually a one-man crew, so it is a must that I be able to equip my shotgun mic (RODE NTG-2) onto my shoulder mount rig. For interviews, I plan to get a mic stand at one point (similar to the one in Jon Fairhurst videos). Because a lot of my other work requires fast turnover and unpredictable shooting, I'm not sure if having to push "record" on two devices and syncing after is a great option.

While I am leaning towards the Juiced+ML combo, I would like to know a few things:

1) What are the chances that this will soon (next month or so) be released as a full version (at least just the audio-related features)?

2) Given my situation, what would most of you recommend? (I'm definitely inspired by Dan Chung - great work!!!)

3) Dan, I realize you used different cameras for your pieces, but did you ever take out the juicedlink+ML during the 'run and gun' takes??? If so, were there difficulties, or did they go away with simple practice?

Thank you very much to everyone :)

1. For run and gun, meaning camera mounted mic, I the Juiced Link will work. Depending on your mic, you may need to push your gain up to analog gain up from the default 10 to 17 in Magic Lantern. I use a Senheiser Me66 and when mounted on the camera, I feel like I have to push gain a bit, to capture decent voice from a distance. I think Jon Fairhurst likes to see you no more that 10, and he has done a lot of testing, so he would be best word on this.

2. You will also have to boost the audio out of the headphone /av jack, at least in Magic Lantern 0.1.5. I use a Boostaroo headphone amp, and have added a volume control, and it does a decent job.

3. I think if you set your levels and your entire camera up with the config file process, you won't really need to access the Menu on the camera. It can be buggy to get in and out of. However, using the config set up, you don't have to go there, until 0.1.6 addresses some of those bugs.

4. 0.1.5 also will allow HDMI out, for a separate monitor. You lose the LCD as with stock firmware, so you have to make a choice as to which you want.

5. If you want zebras, go with default on setting. They will not work or overlay properly on the HDMI out, nor will the crop marks until next version addresses fixes needed.

Goh,

I did a one-man shoot at the Portland Historic Races on Saturday, and it was really instructive. I went macho, bringing a camera bag, shoulder rig - and my 516/3193 lug of a tripod so I could pan my 200mm lens. I pre-loaded my cards with ML 0.1.5 and a config file with 17 dB of analog gain and no digital gain.

Having the ML config file is wonderful - as are the nice big fonts in the latest menus. It's really usable in the field.

Being at a racetrack, I was dealing with a huge range of sounds. On one shot, I might be standing next to a mechanic firing up a 1972 V12 Ferrari 312P race car. In another paddock stall, it might be just me, a car and some empty water bottles. Ten minutes later I'm filming the big bore cars at full scream on the front straightaway.

It's easy to remember to turn the gain down when the meters go red. It's hard to remember to turn them back up for the next shot.

For a one man deal, I can't recommend the juicedLink enough - especially if you use it with an XLR splitter. That would have let me crank the gain into one channel and run it low into the other. That's truly a set and forget setup.

There are a couple things that you'll want: 1) a spare battery, the JL eats them alive if you run phantom power and forget to turn it off, 2) the Allen key for mounting/unmounting to/from the camera - you might need to tighten it up at some point, and 3) a spare cable - ours died on the first take of a recent shoot.

And Chris is right, you'll want the Boostaroo or some other headphone amp. I was running on meters alone when I forgot to turn my gain back up.

Not having to sync up audio is excellent. There's no way I could have manually sync'd the racetrack stuff easily. Without dialog, the sounds were pretty random. (Then again, I might just get creative with how I line them up them in the edit.)

Another nice thing about recording in-camera is that you can play it back immediately on an HD TV and get good sound. That wasn't important on my racetrack shoot, but it can make you and a potential client very happy. (Rather than dailies, you might call these "hourlies".)

And yeah, lately, I've been running the JL full bore and the Magic Lantern at 17dB analog gain.

One odd thing with the latest firmware is that it records the first take at the wrong volume, and has the wrong gain for the first second of each clip. Just do a throwaway take when you start the firmware. Tramm doesn't have this problem on his camera. Our latest guess is that it depends on the speed of the flash card. If you try a recording around a constant sound, you'll be able to quickly find out if this is an issue on your camera.

The most important thing to do is to develop a mental checklist. This includes turning on the juicedLink when you start and turning it off when you're done. Also, consider your picture style and color balance. Start out with a written checklist. Do it the same way every time. Pretty soon it becomes habit.

FWIW, I mostly used the 28mm in the paddock on the shoulder rig. At trackside, I mostly used the 200mm on the tripod, occasionally going to the 85. I really learned the value of quick-disconnects on the shoot. It seemed to take forever to switch from tripod to shoulder and back.

BTW, the zebras on the ML firmware rock. It was easy to get the exposure right where I wanted it very quickly. Reviewing the footage in post, I nailed every shot, blowing out only what I deliberately chose to sacrifice.

Well, that covers it. Best of luck with your shoot!

I’ll ask a really basic question in the interests of clarity.

What you mean by the above is mic into XLR splitter cable, which is then connected to the two separate Juicedlink channels: correct? The disadvantage I see is that you now effectively have only one audio track: for example you could no longer also run a lav into the Juicedlink. Presumably the solution to that would be to use a Juicedlink CX431, which has 4 channels. I’m assuming that the CX431 operates identically and as well as the CX231: the spec appears identical apart from the 2 extra channels in the CX431.

That's true. Recording a high/low signal means that you dedicate two channels to one source.

Except that the 5D2 only has two channels, so you'd have to pre-mix the lav and shotgun and record the combo high in one channel and low in the other.

If this the goal, I'd build a 1/8" cable with a -20dB pad on one channel. You can then use the juicedLink CX 231 with both channels set to "center" and you'd have a single gain control for the lav and another for the shotgun.

But this trades one problem for another - you can protect against overload, but you have one chance to get the lav/shotgun mix right and they can't be separated. That seems worse than possible clipping to me.

Drat, you’re right. I thought I was being clever, but I forgot the 5d has only 2 channels, and my solution is worse than the problem. I’ve been idly wondering whether I should buy the 4 channel Juicedlink rather than the 2, but couldn’t realistically think of ways I’d often use the extra channels; I thought this might be that use.

A four channel juicedLink could be useful when recording multiple lavs - as long as the dialog doesn't step on itself. For instance, this could work with highbrow historical fiction - every line is discrete - but don't try it with a David Mamet play. :)

Thank you so much guys!
 

Thank you so much guys for your responses,

I just made the plunge and should be getting all my gear soon (Juicedlink, Rode NTG-2, Boostaroo, etc). It won't make it for this weekend's shoot, but I'll be shooting mostly b-roll anyway :)

Tramm, I also made sure to send a donation via Paypal. Well deserved and I wish only the best for future developments. Good luck and thanks again :)

After trying out to Magic Lantern firmware, just had a few more questions in relation to some of the previous reply posts

1. What is the difference between mgain (analog?) and dgain (digital)? Chris you mentioned you use 17 in ML (looks like Jon uses the same settings). Is there a discussion thread out there (I couldn't find) which posts best mgain/dgain settings for certain preamp/mic combos (at least for the menu of the firmware, not the preamp)?

2. Jon, really cool to hear your analysis from your one-man shoot last weekend. Appreciate it a lot. You mentioned you needed a spare cable (yours seemed to have died). Were you referring to an XLR cable?

3. Fully agree with the checklist idea - use it until it's ingrained, then let habit take over :)

Thanks again guys for the help and advice. These forums truly are a special space :)

In general, you want to use the cleanest analog gain available to achieve the desired levels. I find that +17dB analog in the camera is still pretty clean.

Digital gain can be achieved in the camera, or in post. Every time you turn it up 6dB you lose one bit of dynamic range. I prefer to leave it at zero in camera and boost in post, if needed. I get the same noise either way, but by leaving the in-camera digital gain at zero, I maximize my headroom, just in case I get a loud, unexpected sound.

Thanks Jon!
 

Thanks Jon, makes sense.
Appreciate the reply as always :)

[QUOTE=Goh Iromoto;1172819] Chris you mentioned you use 17 in ML (looks like Jon uses the same settings). Is there a discussion thread out there (I couldn't find) which posts best mgain/dgain settings for certain preamp/mic combos (at least for the menu of the firmware, not the preamp)?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...k-cx231-6.html

John did some multiple mic testing on his exploration of the sound setup here, which included the Magic Lantern firmware. We are early in this game, and each of us is using what we have on hand and testing as we go. I have Me66, and AT399 lavs and I have use Juiced Link and my Eng44. Eng44 definitely has more power in the preamp, and I can probably set both gains at 0 with the ME 66. On the Juice Link at close range with the ME66, I have shot 10 analog, and 12 digital, at Jon's recommendation, and come out well. But of you are farther away from you subject, I think 17 analog is a better way to go.

I did shoot the AT399 lavs into the juiced link. Lav were not on body, and were planted near the talent. As I recall, I had analog at 17, and levels were still a bit low in that situation. On the body would have been fine.

First, I miss named the AT 899 as 399s.

I just did a little run with the Audio Technica 899 lav into the Juiced Link. It seems to match up well. I was updating my YouTube Diary on my recently acquired Bells Palsy condition. I set the JuicedLlink on high preamp gain, and trim full on, digital audio at 0, and analog at 17. I did no adjustment in post. You can take a look here:

YouTube - Bells Palsy: Day4

I use an Edirol R-44 4 track portable to record separate sound for my 5D2, and also often run a Zoom H2 (internal mics), which I use for 4 channel 'surround sound' ambiences. I have never contemplated the 'on board' sound of the camera.
However it occured to me that putting the main mic (usually a Sennheiser 416) output onto the camera as a 'sync guide track' might speed up re-syncing the audio in post as I often leave the recorder running between shots.
Luckily the R-44 has separate channel outputs on phonos...so feeding the first two outputs into the camera mic input does work...but the R-44 needs to have the outputs padded down as I'm sticking 'line level' into 'mic level' of course.
I've just tried Magic Lantern, for the first time and find that setting the analogue gain to '0' gives a clean feed back onto the camera...so thank you Tramm, I'll give it a try out on my next movie.
I can also confirm what Jon has noticed, that the first take is distorted and on subsequent takes the first second of audio is also, but it then the gain drops.
I also notice that taking the Magic Lantern out of 'Live View' produces a corrupt screen..no problem but I like to release 'Live View' when not shooting to save batteries and 'keep it all cool'.
Dave T.