Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > External Video Recording Solutions

External Video Recording Solutions
DTE (Direct To Edit) systems which bypass the video capture process.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 28th, 2009, 05:37 PM   #61
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,102
The firestores also handled HDV (mine does) as well as DCVProHD. Neither is as hard as Jpeg2000 on the fly, but surely without having to power a hard drive in the unit, that additional power could be redirected to cooling the chips.

I'm pretty much done with Cineform. Too much money, too little flexibility. I haven't heard anything about their recorder in a long time. The Convergent is real, and very compelling. I'd voiced my concern earlier during development about a better codec, but they choose Mpeg2 for some solid reasons. I just don't care for it. I wish my Sony used something more robust.

Five years from now, I think we'll see massive shifts in codecs.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th, 2009, 10:28 AM   #62
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Hi Thomas, Frank & Perrone:

My machine will do compressed and full uncompressed on SDXC cards. Heck, You can do 4:2:2 10 bit uncompressed on a striped pair of class 6 SD HC cards ! The new SDXC cards will be 1 TB plus and have write speeds fast enough for uncompressed 4:4:4 10 bit anf 12 bit color space. My design spec calls for 10 bit 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 compressed and uncompressed recording. We are seriously looking at using an MPEG 4 compression engine. We are not sure what data rate the MPEG 4 will be encoded at. It will depend a how good the image looks coming out of the Canon XL H1's 10 bit 4:2:2 HD-SDI socket. (Yes, I know the H1 is an 8 bit camera). Whatever looks great out of this camera wins ! If you are shooting live action for multi-layer digital visual effects compositing, then you're nuts to shoot anything less than uncompressed. Shooting with any form of compression *does* show up on the end composited scene - especially if you're going out to film ! How many folks are working this way ? Not that many, but I plan to go this route in my digital film making, so I will build this capability into the unit.

Guys, can you tell me what forms nof TC functionality you want to see built into a unit ? Do tell :-)
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2009, 07:27 AM   #63
Tourist
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lecce ITALY
Posts: 3
Hi Mark!

i'm interested about your project...when will be out? I need for motorsport applications..
Roberto Lion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2009, 09:04 AM   #64
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,102
While I am not in the market for at least a year (more if this economy doesn't pick up), if I were looking for a unit like this, I'd want a few things:

1. HD/SDI input and outputs (One for monitor, one passthrough. I'd like to monitor AFTER the recorder.

2. HDMI input

3. SDXC or CF recording. I've never seen SDXC so I don't know the performance.

4. Codec: Uncompressed AVI/MOV for those that need it, but that is a SMALL percentage. Something like Jpeg2000 or other wavelet codec would be most welcome. More so than and Mpeg4. At least to me. I can't think of any advantages of Mpeg4 over wavelet.

5. A low power display screen that gives status and info on the signal being input.


As for the idea that people would be crazy to not record uncompressed for VFX... well, I don't know. Mathematically lossless should be plenty good enough and have numerous advantages. And for bit depth, 10-bit or 10--bit log should be plenty.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2009, 10:20 AM   #65
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Lion View Post
Hi Mark!

i'm interested about your project...when will be out? I need for motorsport applications..
...Bonjorno Roberto ! Who knows ? We can't give a specific-solid date anymore. We are working on it as fast as my pocket book (Read cash financing) allows.
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2009, 10:36 AM   #66
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
While I am not in the market for at least a year (more if this economy doesn't pick up), if I were looking for a unit like this, I'd want a few things:

1. HD/SDI input and outputs (One for monitor, one passthrough. I'd like to monitor AFTER the recorder.
......Done. Both, with a switch between REALTIME and POST RECORD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
2. HDMI input
....Yes. 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
3. SDXC or CF recording. I've never seen SDXC so I don't know the performance.
...SD, SDHC, and SDXC *only* CF cards are expensive and evil ! Did I mention not readily available in many markets also ? SD cards can be had at our local corner store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
4. Codec: Uncompressed AVI/MOV for those that need it, but that is a SMALL percentage. Something like Jpeg2000 or other wavelet codec would be most welcome. More so than and Mpeg4. At least to me. I can't think of any advantages of Mpeg4 over wavelet.
....It will record RAW data, MPEG 4, Uncompressed AVI and QT. And we want to create our own special format. (I have no idea what that will even be called, or if it works yet.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
5. A low power display screen that gives status and info on the signal being input.
...Yes, we had intended to have a 16 x 9 aspect ratio LCD screen showing what's being recorded with a data overlay switchable to on or off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
As for the idea that people would be crazy to not record uncompressed for VFX... well, I don't know. Mathematically lossless should be plenty good enough and have numerous advantages. And for bit depth, 10-bit or 10--bit log should be plenty.
...Mathmatically lossless is good enough if you are going straight out to film or TV from that, but as soon as you composite it, then it slowly reveals itself through multiple layers. More noticeable on film than on television.
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2009, 08:40 PM   #67
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Update as of August 28 2009

Hi friends. I thought I'd drop you folks a quick line on our progress. We are having a gentle internal debate as to what final codecs we will use in our device. One of my engineers is strongly pushing AVCintra to be included, while I want to see how far we can go with a high quality MPEG 4 based codec. My concern is having to approach the patent owners of the AVCintra codec for licensing rights. Would they license to a bunch of guys fooling around in our garage ? (Because this is all we're doing at this stage) Do we have enough money to obtain those rights if we were to head in that direction and the owners said yes ?

We're also trying to decide on final box dimensions. I claim that this is the least of our problems now - just give me something that records and plays back for a public demonstration ! The other bummer is it's taking too freakin long to get to successful protype stage ! Oh well - Edison tried 99 times on the lightbulb filament - not 98 !

It's still fun to work on this project, although, it's become somewhat of a personal vendetta now. :-)
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #68
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 98
go for whatever keeps costs down. there are already high end options out there and that market already is tapped.. the budget demographic is the one that hasn't been targeted yet and are the people keeping an eye out for yous guys.
Ron Wilber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #69
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 1,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Job View Post
The other bummer is it's taking too freakin long to get to successful protype stage !
That won't change as long as you allow the engineers to run you instead of you running the engineers. I don't mean to sound cynical but one of the most frequent problems that start up companies have is that someone comes up with a good idea for a product and decides to "go out and hire a couple of engineers" only to find they have a giant mess on their hands. It's important to set the rules from the beginning. If left to their own devices, most engineers think they have all the answers as well as know more that all future customers combined. Lastly, the thing that many engineers enjoy more than anything else is arguing. I call it - "Recreational Equivocation."
Jim Snow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2009, 01:04 PM   #70
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Snow View Post
That won't change as long as you allow the engineers to run you instead of you running the engineers. I don't mean to sound cynical but one of the most frequent problems that start up companies have is that someone comes up with a good idea for a product and decides to "go out and hire a couple of engineers" only to find they have a giant mess on their hands. It's important to set the rules from the beginning. If left to their own devices, most engineers think they have all the answers as well as know more that all future customers combined. Lastly, the thing that many engineers enjoy more than anything else is arguing. I call it - "Recreational Equivocation."
....Man, you are so right on about this subject ! I came damn close to firing one of them last week ! I'm the one with the *vision* for this project. This is my party. I'm paying for it. To be fair I am in awe of what engineers can do. To know what chip does what and how to design circuits and programs to run on EPROMS. Frankly, some of this stuff comes darn close to alchemy as far as I'm concerned. I think some (Not all engineers) can become a little arrogant at times. I guess that's why larger companies hire a "Project Manager" who is an expert at rangling in folks as they float up to the mountains on their own hot air. Our arguments have been intense, but good and fair ones. I don't want to limit anyone's creativity, or ever prevent someone from being able to say, "Well, what if we tried this ?" I remain somewhat philosophical by accepting this as part of the growing pains of designing something. At the end of the day, I have executive decision and/or I just run out of money.
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #71
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wilber View Post
go for whatever keeps costs down. there are already high end options out there and that market already is tapped.. the budget demographic is the one that hasn't been targeted yet and are the people keeping an eye out for yous guys.
...Hi Ron. True. True. I agree about the high end market being tapped out. I'm really interested in independent - no budget shooters like us ! I can't find anything that does what I need to be done at a relevant price, so we just have to make it ourselves :-) But it is expensive to make "one of" something. Still, if I only ever make "one of" something which is fully functional and immanently practical, then I will be happy to show that around at trade shows and see who wants to buy it, or approach us for a manufacturing deal. I think that to have your very own SSDR on SD cards is the coolest thing ever !
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2009, 07:10 PM   #72
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Echuca, Victoria, Australiamate
Posts: 179
And Im one of those eagerly awaiting the product.
Firestores and the nanoflash are out of my price range.

Ben
Ben Longden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #73
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
.....Hi Ben. Yeah, me too ! I think Convergent Designs has done a good job with the Nanoflash. I might even dare to purchase one of those boxes myself one of these days. I can't get the Flash media very easily in my market, and it's really pricey. The SD cards are cheap and are available everywhere. I think the CF cards are a media which has always been associated with strictly professional imaging - thus their added expense and special order status in most Montreal stores. If you want the really fast and largest capacity CF cards which meet CD specifications, then you special order and wait and fork out big dollars. This is justifiable if you have the big client on the other end of the equasion. If you're a digi-underground shooter, then you need to go a different route. I'm sure the Convergent Designs folks must have spent a *ton* of money developping the Flash XDR and the Nanoflash ! CD's approach to their SSDR could not have been an inexpensive one.

.....Regarding the Firestore, it's a $500.00 technology retailing for a whole lot more ! Let us not forget the Firestore has no actual encoding engine built into it. The encoding is performed by the camera attached to the device. The Firestore is essentially a portable hard drive with some programmable software flashed into a few chips. I like the Firestore because it's firewire friendly, but not quite at the price point it needs to be at. I've used them and they get the job done if you're shooting in HDV, but they lack multiple digital alternative inputs, like HD-SDI.
Mark Job is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2009, 10:14 AM   #74
Convergent Design
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 869
Hi Mark-
While I cannot purchase our recommended CF cards (Sandisk 32GB Extreme III) at the local discount stores (Best Buy, Staples, etc), the cards are readily available from major on-line retailers (B&H, Adorama, etc) for next day delivery. These cards are not a special order items and while more expensive than most CF cards, we have found that the Sandisk cards are the most reliable. If you want high-quality video you need the faster cards to accomadate the bit-rate. I doubt the high-speed SDHC cards (like the upcoming 32GB Extreme III SDHC) will be any less expensive than comparable performing CF cards. Both CF and SDHC utilize the same NAND Flash memory, the only difference is the controller. In fact the SDHC cards may be more expensive since the manufacturing is more difficult due to the smaller form factor.

Yes, we have spent a considerable amount of money (and time) developing the Flash XDR and the nanoFlash. This is a very complex product with many technologies to develop, including HD/SD-SDI I/O, HDMI I/O, QT/MXF/MPG/M2V file formats, 1080i60/50, 1080psf30/25/24, 720p60/50 video formats, audio/video synchronization, video pre-buffer, power supply design, cabinet design, cooling and heat considerations, etc, etc. We were fortunate to have access to some outstanding CODEC technology from Sony, which greatly reduced our development time and costs.

I wish you continued success in your development efforts, competiton spurs everyone to make better products!

Cheers-
__________________
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Mike Schell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2009, 06:57 PM   #75
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,138
...Hi Mike :-) Thank you for the cheer on. You will have to wait about a year or so to start having that so called *competition* from us ! At the rate we're going at this in my garage, I'm concerned that everyone and their brother will have some kind of an SSDR out on the market at all kinds of price ranges. In the mean time, even I had to order a Flash XDR for a high end project a client has asked us to shoot here in Montreal. If the high end budget is there, then why not go for the XDR for that kind of production ? Uhh, those folks can't wait a year plus for me to perfect our SD card recorder.

.....One look at the nanoFlash or the XDR, and one can only arrive at the conclusion it is a complex and highly engineered product. I particularly commend you on the finishing quality of your SSDR boxes. Right now, we are making cardboard model after model of different boxes trying to visualize in 3D space what our SSDR should look like, and how it should fit on a camera. Should we have one motherboard ? Do we need two, or shall we have three ? This is a really big question. It's so expensive to make this stuff ! (For the first time, and only one)

Addendum: Concerning the availability and easy enough access to the correct CF cards to use in the Flash XDR, the sources you quoted are US sources. Obviously, we want to use what you folks at Convergent Designs recommend. There's no point in throwing CF cards at the XDR for which it wasn't designed for. I'm sure you well understand our tendancy to try and source a local supplier (In Canada) for the proper CF card media, for which we can pay in Canadian currency if we can. I'm not saying one does not exist, I only state here what I've been told by some of the high end digital photography boutiques and computer parts suppliers in the city - that they consider it a special order for CF card performance versions. I naturally want to invest in the Sandisk 32 GB EXtreme III, or something comparable, if I can obtain them. If we have to source these CF cards on line from the US, then we will go this route. Four of these super fast 32 GB cards in an XDR would prove to be a killer combination for shooting time at higher data rates.

Last edited by Mark Job; August 31st, 2009 at 10:02 PM.
Mark Job is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Omega Broadcast
(512) 251-7778
Austin, TX

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > External Video Recording Solutions

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 




Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2014 The Digital Video Information Network