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Old July 5th, 2011, 04:14 PM   #46
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

David - thanks for the kind words. My guess is that Robert meant it less as a compliment and more as a statement that my data didn't conflict with his - that I am just an outlier, and he was talking to everyone else. [It seems that he or Chris removed the most objectionable portion of his comments to me without comment, so who knows.]

For the record, I am certainly aware that people - depending on their background and inclination - have a range of difficulty moving from one platform to another. And I know that I'm a good learner. BUT - I don't think everyone else is a bad one. In fact on this board, the only voices I've heard speaking to trying out Premiere from FCP have said that it's gone very well. I have read many people talking about trying it, and I've known several people personally to make the switch, and I have not heard a single voice saying, "I tried out Premiere and it is was hard to switch." I've only heard Robert say that it WILL be hard if you do try. Perhaps he tried to switch and had problems? I don't know, he didn't offer any examples on that.

Heath - I think the economic issue is a big and important one, but it certainly wasn't the point of his original post. Clearly, we'd all like the economy and the business to be better. And clearly, no one needs to switch anything if it's not economically viable to do so. And if that's the case, this discussion is moot.

But if you are upgrading and you're only buying new software, the PR crossgrade makes it the exact same price as FCPX. If and you're upgrading hardware and software, PCs are measurably cheaper by a significant degree for the same computing power. So at that point it becomes very relevant.

Especially given the economic situation, if you think it's relevant, I don't think it's good advice to keep investing in a system that is built around FCP7 when there is no upgrade path - unless you are absolutely sure that everything you are investing in will still be useful if you switch to PR or Avid down the road. And if you're taking that route... I'd personally say switch now.

I am platform agnostic. I have owned both, used both, and they do the same thing. And certainly if Robert thinks it's going to be "wrought with unforeseen struggles and gotchas," I encourage him to tell people that. But I disagree, and I want people to hear both sides of that coin.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 04:21 PM   #47
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

I personally am a Mac guy, have been for close to 17 years, so I won't be switching to Windows at all. That's my personal opinion and works perfect for me.

Right now, I'm staying with FCP 7 and will be taking a look at FCP X. I don't do multicam (not yet, at least) and haven't had to do XML in years, and I tend to do everything within FCP (sound, cc, etc.). So FCP X is probably perfect for me. And I'll be SUPER happy once my plug-ins are updated; I use Magic Bullet Looks and Quick Looks often, and FxFactory Pro's titling plug-ins from time-to-time.

I haven't been a full-time production guy in over a year, and I haven't cut a film (short or feature) in three years, so I'm also not really looking to change my NLE anytime soon. I have all the major NLEs, and they're all pretty much very similar and shouldn't be too much of a burden to switch, IF I have to.

Personally, I like FCP 7 the best, Vegas is exciting to me with its "different take" on telling a story, Premiere Pro is a little clunky to me, and Avid is moreso. And if you ask me why, it just is... even with the FCP 7 shortcuts, there are still little things that bug me about both apps. I haven't used either in a few months, but I was editing on FCP 7 last week.

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Old July 5th, 2011, 04:32 PM   #48
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

For me its more of a philosophical point and frustration/anger how Apple never really overhauled FCP. People for years have been complaining when are they going make FCP 64 bit, update the interface, etc. I'm doing what someone else said I'm still using version 6 because 7 was a joke, offering next to nothing. I still can do what I need to, so there is no need for me to upgrade. Like others have said you can't help think of the future and how much time and money do you want invest in a company that acts this way. There is a reason why companies offer different products based on whether you are a business or a consumer. They have different needs. The larger question is who is FCP being designed for?

I have this naive notion that users and a software company should have a symbiotic relationship. Software company builds a product to address the needs of an industry and in a timely manner offers new versions that keep up with technology and addresses the changing needs of its customer base. In return, customers stay loyal and continue to buy the latest version. The feeling most of us have been getting from Apple is they are doing things based on their strategic plans, and if by luck you should fit into their plans then great. They seem out of touch or indifferent to what video professionals need and want. This isn't about old people refusing change like meta data, its about offering a smooth transition to the future. Its as if they have no concept of how a business works. In my work I find out what the client wants. I could create the slickest video on Blu-Ray but if they need it in SD on DVD they're not going to be happy.

Apple isn't the first company to acquire a product, put little to no R&D back into and see how long they milk it for. If you are old enough to remember, that's what Adobe did with Premiere, opening the door for FCP. One gets tired of watching history repeat itself.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #49
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

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I personally am a Mac guy, have been for close to 17 years, so I won't be switching to Windows at all. That's my personal opinion and works perfect for me.
And I support that 100%. That's different than telling others that they shouldn't.

If you see someone debating Ford vs. Chevy, you'll get a lot of people saying, "oh, I love the way this feels - I'll never drive anything else," "I wouldn't be caught dead in a Ford," all kinds of stuff. But if you're advising someone on which car to buy, I like it to be about the numbers and the facts. Cost, lifespan, resale, gas mileage.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 05:06 PM   #50
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

The relationship between your NLE maker of choice and you the editor can seem personal. But you cannot get to the point where it seems to me as "blind" worship. While I'm not saying that anyone has done this recently, I must say that about 3 or 4 years ago I almost got tarred and feathered on this very FCP forum for asking some questions about why you cannot edit/revise a title easily in the timeline. It was like "hey old man" Avid editor, this software rocks. That was an actual response. Revising titles was and still is something I do with a large amount of frequency. I was just learning FCP, but i had been editing on Avid for a decade so i wasn't a novice. This is one very basic function that I cannot believe isn't there yet. I wasn't attacking anyone FCP editor personally. Just asking why you can't do it. Instead they acted like I was calling them bad editors? They're great editors, but calling out "holes" in software is important feedback. So I thought!

It was like some guys thought FCP was the best editor ever without asking or challenging the Apple progrmmers to improve the whole experience. At one time, Avid became arrogant from its success, but we called them to task. Management did listen and they changed. But, we "yelled" and told them to lower prices and make the whole experience faster. And they did.

In all honesty, I think there are some amazing FCP editors out there. But once you stop holding the three A's accountable, then you get complacency and even arrogance from them. They're your tools. Tell them what you want. Don't just say, well we will get there someday. Tell them now,,or tell them now by switching to another app. That will get their attention. Just like Avid editors moving to FCP got Avid's attention.

Don't fall in love with them or worship them. Peace.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 05:48 PM   #51
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

I think anyone who was honest would freely admit the way FCP dealt with titles/text was confusing, difficult to work with and out of date. The basic functionality of the timeline and making edits was fine and the fact that it didn't crash and supported many formats and had good codecs like ProRes pacified people. Their answer to titles was use another program. I also thought it had to do with their laziness to avoid anything that would require a re-write of the code. Add features or complimentary applications? yes! Re-write the code? Nope.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 07:51 PM   #52
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

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The relationship between your NLE maker of choice and you the editor can seem personal. But you cannot get to the point where it seems to me as "blind" worship. While I'm not saying that anyone has done this recently, I must say that about 3 or 4 years ago I almost got tarred and feathered on this very FCP forum for asking some questions about why you cannot edit/revise a title easily in the timeline. It was like "hey old man" Avid editor, this software rocks. That was an actual response. Revising titles was and still is something I do with a large amount of frequency. I was just learning FCP, but i had been editing on Avid for a decade so i wasn't a novice. This is one very basic function that I cannot believe isn't there yet. I wasn't attacking anyone FCP editor personally. Just asking why you can't do it. Instead they acted like I was calling them bad editors? They're great editors, but calling out "holes" in software is important feedback. So I thought!

It was like some guys thought FCP was the best editor ever without asking or challenging the Apple progrmmers to improve the whole experience. At one time, Avid became arrogant from its success, but we called them to task. Management did listen and they changed. But, we "yelled" and told them to lower prices and make the whole experience faster. And they did.

In all honesty, I think there are some amazing FCP editors out there. But once you stop holding the three A's accountable, then you get complacency and even arrogance from them. They're your tools. Tell them what you want. Don't just say, well we will get there someday. Tell them now,,or tell them now by switching to another app. That will get their attention. Just like Avid editors moving to FCP got Avid's attention.

Don't fall in love with them or worship them. Peace.
AMEN!

I, also, have seen many Apple fanatics, and it kind of deters me from wanting to join their 'club'. However, at least some people have woken up due to the FCPX scandal.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #53
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

Slightly off-topic, but I've seen format fanatics on the Windows side, too. For years, Apple was derided as closed off, you can't share Windows files and Mac files, etc. To this day, I have friends who begrudgingly admit their wives' iPhone is better than their Android, but still tell me how Mac OS X is still an iffy OS. Right, 10 years and iffy.

And don't get me started on my Linux friends... (grin)

It's all over the place, and I try to tune it out and just focus on what works for me. That happens to be Mac, and I've used Apple as my primary computer since I started college in 1994, but when I left I was on both a Mac and Windows box. But I mostly stayed with Mac while using Windows here and there (NT workstations for networked writing in a TV news environment, etc.). Mac works for me just like Windows works for someone else.

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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:22 AM   #54
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

Just a thought here....

With Apple's interest in selling iThings, might it be the case that the Mac Pro line and the OS get dumbed down over time? Apple have already shown they have no loyalty to professional users with FCPX so can be expect Apple to push everyone towards iPad like devices?

I'm already very wary of the forthcoming Lion update in case it breaks anything to do with Quicktime or FCP7.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 06:56 AM   #55
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

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[...] I'm already very wary of the forthcoming Lion update in case it breaks anything to do with Quicktime or FCP7.
Apple has reassured us in their FAQ (and have also told strategic end-users in briefings) that Final Cut Pro 7 will continue to run under Lion. So we have one more OS release in which we can happily continue editing with ye olde Final Cut Pro Classic and take our time crafting a transition plan for our existing workflows. Who knows, in the meantime Final Cut Pro X may grow up fast and surprise us.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 09:03 AM   #56
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

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take our time crafting a transition plan for our existing workflows
It's looking like Adobe are doing that for us. Every time I look at the list of software that comes in their suite I start salivating. It's a very attractive package. Yes FCP 7 is marginally better as an editor, but the packages you get with the Adobe suite are really looking attractive to me and the 50% off makes it all look merely overpriced rather than the usual extortionate pricing that swayed me towards FCP to begin with.

Apple may fix FCPX but long term I have no confidence in them not to pull these stunts again as they simply have no interest in us as a userbase. If they did they wouldn't have released such an incomplete package.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #57
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

Love the blog David, btw,

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Old July 8th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #58
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

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It's looking like Adobe are doing that for us. Every time I look at the list of software that comes in their suite I start salivating. It's a very attractive package. Yes FCP 7 is marginally better as an editor, but the packages you get with the Adobe suite are really looking attractive to me and the 50% off makes it all look merely overpriced rather than the usual extortionate pricing that swayed me towards FCP to begin with.

Apple may fix FCPX but long term I have no confidence in them not to pull these stunts again as they simply have no interest in us as a userbase. If they did they wouldn't have released such an incomplete package.
I agree.

If you look at all of Adobe's creative suite programs, you should see that they really don't need to push Premiere because so many people already buy the Production suite for Photoshop, Illustrator and/or After Effects. The fact that Adobe has invested so many resources over the last couple versions should show that Adobe is probably more committed to the 'Pro' market (anyone earning their living from video) than any other NLE maker.

When I first decided to begin a career in video, I tested Media Composer and FCP on a friends computer, Edius, Vegas and Premiere Pro on my computer. I found Vegas to be too consumer-ish with too many templates and presets. I like to have control over everything which is why I don't use very many plug-ins like stuff from the Magic Bullet suite (I use Cameratracker, Particular, Optical Flares, NeatVideo and a few other small ones). I didn't like how both Avid and FCP required everything to be transcoded before you can start working. I liked how Edius and Premiere could handle formats natively, but the deciding factor was the integration of the entire Adobe suite and After Effects. It also helped that I already owned the design/web CS2 suite.

To those who make excuses for Apple and all of the missing features and bugs in FCP X by saying that it is a complete rewrite so these issues are to be expected - hopefully, you will 'see' the light and writing on the wall. Just look at Adobe who rewrote Premiere Pro CS5, AE CS5, Encore CS5, Media Encoder CS5 and Photoshop CS4-CS5 making them 64bit on BOTH Mac & Windows in 18 months. That was after changing Premiere and AE CS4 to be 64bit 'compatible' where they could use more than 3GB of ram but were not 64bit native. Also, 'X' has the iMovie interface which was released back in 2008 so FCP X has been worked on since then; thus, Apple has had plenty of time.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 04:26 AM   #59
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

Just to bring this up because someone posted the question again earlier today, there's no pressure to swap to PC at the moment as I believe with Adobe you can "crossgrade" at any time.

So you can stick with your current Mac for now but if Apple do abandon proper computers for tablets then you can switch with ease.

That's the theory anyway. I certainly don't want to abandon my current hardware but in 2 or 3 years time then if Apple have lost all interest in full computers then so be it.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 04:44 AM   #60
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Re: To Mac or not to Mac: The Future for Mac-based editors

Actually, we had problems with crossgrading with Adobe, ie. we were told that it is not possible to update a suite to a version on a different operating system (from Mac to PC), and that we have to buy a new full version. It was about 2 years ago, and in Poland, so the policies could have changed, especially if Mac Pro gets abandoned, but still it was kind of disappointing.
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