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Old November 17th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #1
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Migrating to FCP X from FCP 7. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

I have a documentary to edit and want to see if FCP X is up to snuff for me. I remember initially that there was a problem installing FCP X without it clobbering FCP 7. What are the issues with having both installed without booting separate OS X images? Are Motion and Compressor one way upgrades? Should I scrap the idea and stay with FCP 7?

As far as I can tell, I'm on an FCP X capable machine. How well would you expect FCP X to run on this: Mac Pro 4,1, 2x2.26 Quad-Core Xeon, 14GB memory, NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB and Mountain Lion.

What about XDCAM upgrades? Can I get away with just the FCP X plugin for XDCAM and leave my working full function FCP compatible XDCAM utilities?

Sorry if this is a duplicate but I searched and read back a year in the relevant forums to no avail. TIA.

Last edited by Les Wilson; November 18th, 2013 at 08:22 AM. Reason: better title
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Old November 17th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #2
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Hi Les.

I have both FCP X and FCP 6 together on both of my machines with no issues. One of them is an old MacBook Pro with less specs than yours (that one's on Snow Leopard too - I wanted to keep Cinema Tools and LiveType for when I open up older projects, which is why I left it on SL) and it all works fine on both 6 and X.

I installed the XDCAM plug-in for FCP X and that works fine. It will store your footage in the Events Folder when you use that.

I also run both versions of Compressor on the two machines and have had no issues.

However, I don't think you can run FCP X and FCP 6 at the same time on the one machine. You'll have to shut one down to open the other up.

FCP X is really fast and it's well worth suffering through the tutorials and learning to "think" with it, as a long-term view. Just my opinion, of course.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #3
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

@David Thanks. Yeah, I left my Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro at Snow Leopard for a long time ... crossed fingers and took the plunge to Mt Lion.

So you just installed FCP X, Motion 4 and Compressor 4 and your FCP and XDCAM applications remained intact? I forgot about LiveType. I still need it.

Can I ask what you used to start learning FCP X?
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Old November 18th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #4
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Les - for myself, to get started with FCP X, I used a combination of web tutorials and a couple books. The web tutorial experience was more of an ordeal - sifting through all those that are available to find ones that hit on subjects that I needed to know. Probably the early "how to get started" ones were okay but after that the books worked better for drilling down into the details.

There were two books I bought right off:

"Final Cut Pro X"
Visual Quickstart Guide, Lisa Brenneis and Michael Wohl
Final Cut Pro X: Visual QuickStart Guide (Visual QuickStart Guides): Lisa Brenneis, Michael Wohl: 9780321774668: Amazon.com: Trade-In
This was written, I think, for 10.0.1; however, it still covers a lot of what is in 10.0.9
The plus on this book is there are LOTS of pictures, hints, and very nice step-by-step procedures. I constantly refer to it for help. Even though there has been a number of upgrades since the .1 version I think a used copy at the used price would be very worthwhile.

"Final Cut Pro X - 10.0.3 New Features: A new type of manual - the visual approach"
Edgar Rothermich
Final Cut Pro X - 10.0.3 New Features: A new type of manual - the visual approach: Edgar Rothermich: 9781470059279: Amazon.com: Books
This one was helpful with regard to file organization and learning how to think in Data Base. Fortunately, I've worked with and created data bases over the years so this one, after just getting started, wasn't all that useful. However, it is a different approach than the one above and in combination, it really helps one to get going. Mostly for organization though.

There are a lot more books available now than when X came out so time was your friend in this regard.

Speaking of ".9", since 10.1 will be released shortly, they say, you might want to hold off getting the .9 version so you don't have to buy it twice.

As an aside, one video editing application that is getting a lot of attention in Europe is called MAGIX.
Music-, Video-, Graphic & Photo Software from the market leader - MAGIX
Hopefully the Apple FCPX folks are looking over their shoulder at it's capability and pricing. Very capable and very competitively priced. And improving fast. They also seem to be very aggressive in development.

Edit:
re Computer: I was using a Mac Pro 1,1 (I think 2.6) with an upgraded video card to run X and it worked just fine. This summer I upgraded to a Mac Pro 3,1 3.2 and moved the video card over to it and it's running fine too. 4,1? Hey, that should be a lot better. I'm also running it on a MacBook Pro late 2008 2.53 with 8 GB and it works fine on it too. The cooling fans get to spinning a lot during rendering though.

Editorial comment: Moving video files and Projects around takes a little more getting used to because it isn't just "drag and drop". The application has a procedure for this and it'll do it for you.

And one more thing …..
To keep 7 and X separate, what about the idea of getting a Solid State Drive and mounting X on it and leave 7 on the other drive? The SSD doesn't have to be a big drive because one can get another HD just for the video files (Events) and Projects.

Last edited by John Nantz; November 18th, 2013 at 04:07 AM. Reason: Added computer info
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Old November 18th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #5
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Re: Migrating to FCP X from FCP 7. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

@ John. Wow, thanks.

Hopefully this thread will help others who come along later ... unless I am the last one. haha

I have 4 drives in my Mac Pro. I totally forgot about file organization issues for migrating to FCP X. Other than keeping everything off the operating system drive, how do you organize your media in terms of original acquisition, .movs, render, other project media (stills, music ...)? Is there a reason to keep FCP X projects segregated?

Last edited by Les Wilson; November 18th, 2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #6
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Good idea re the title tweaking.

Four drives? That brings back memories of when I first got the Mac Pro 1,1 and it had four drive bays. Who would ever need that many??? Well, …. now I know. In fact, I want a few more. Looking forward to probably January will be a RAID system, hopefully. I$n't video fun?

SSD drive: This is for applications. Even though it was kinda small it still has lots of room on it. I was trying out having the active X projects on it and then moving them off when I was finished with them but since it has only been recently that I migrated everything over to the newer 3,1 Mac Pro with the SSD drive I haven't determined if this will be my working plan going ahead. Basically I need more time to play with the system.

HDs: There are two, one large one (2 or 3 TB) and a smaller one. The smaller one has the backups for documents, photos, and the like, plus my earlier video files and projects.

Passport drives: I've got two of them for more backups and the 1 TB is just for video.

Then there is the MacBook Pro and the MacBook White. The "White" has been my surfing computer while the MBP is for doing X video on the road.

With the changes in the computers it's been a real effort keeping up with managing all the files and various application updates but I'm finally getting things organized and under control. I hope the RAID system will help with both organizing, file protection/backups, and archiving.

The older JVC camera uses *.tod files so they have to be converted and I've been using ClipWrap. The converted files go into Movies/JVC HD7/yyyy/yyyymmdd [short description]/MOVxxx.mov
For clarification, the folder name for the video files is yyyymmdd [short description]

The newer JVC camera natively uses *.mov so that goes easy.

Sometimes there are photos that are incorporated in the Project so I stick them in the same folder with the video files but of course they have the picture file name. It isn't very often this happens but if my wife is along with her camera then sometimes I can make use of some photos. Vacation, birthday party, things like that.

Acquisition: I used to create a separate folder for the *.tod files then import them into that folder. Then I'd create a *.mov folder so when the tod files were converted they would have a place to go. Lately I've just cut out the first step and just bring them from the camera into ClipWrap where they get converted and saved automatically in the yyyymmdd [description] folder. Simpler and much faster.

FCPX has two areas for Events and Projects and they are saved by FCPX only in the Root Directory, f.e., Macintosh HD. You have no choice in this. (As my wife likes to say: "Get over it!")

Event: You create a New Event (I'm using the same file name system for the Events as for where the *.mov files are stored, namely, yyyymmdd [short description]. Once the Event is named then it is in the FCPX data base system. Open the Event and Import the *.mov files you want from wherever they were saved. There is an opportunity to cull any bad files at this point.

Project: I name the Project the same way as the Event. Not much creativity here. From the Event clips one just copies or drags the clips, or portions of the clips, into the Project time line. In the Timeline one can further cut off pieces of a clip in the edit process.

Render files: FCPX takes care of those so you don't have to do anything. Music files: You know, I'm not sure about how those are handled because I've been just using the sound effects that came with FCPX. The copyright issue has me stymied but that is an area I'll be looking into. Pictures: if they're my pictures I copy the ones I want from iPhoto into the Event Library.

If you want to Move and Event, Share a Project (f.e., Vimeo, DVD, Send to Compressor, etc.), all those actions are under File in the Menu. Editorial rant: I hate the term "Share"! I like the term "Export"! But I'm just a low consumer who had difficulty changing my old ways. I know, I know, "Get over it!"

Keeping FCPX Projects Separate: One reason for this is that is the way the application does it. Another reason is because video files gobble up (just remembered, Thanksgiving is right around the corner) so much space they pretty much deserve their own drive. I'm not only okay with this, I actually prefer it.

Last edited by John Nantz; November 18th, 2013 at 11:16 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old November 18th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #7
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Watched some tutorials and found this paper:
http://blogs.saic.edu/fvnmatech/file...ICS_091112.pdf

I get it that each drive has a file in it's root for "Final Cut Events" and "Final Cut Projects". In FCP 7, I would have a folder for the "Job" containing the FCP file(s) and all the other stuff that went along with the "Project" such as stills, compressed output files, scripts, licenses, sound effects etc. The "edit" media was in the FCP Capture Scratch folder where Log & Transfer put it. Everything in the FCP file pointed to a file in the Capture Scratch folder or somewhere inside the Job folder. Those two folders could be on separate drives. Archiving a "Project" meant copying my "Job" folder and the Capture Scratch folder for that project to the Archive drive.

For a given "Job" using FCP X, where exactly are the various media files organized with respect to the FCP X Events and Projects folders?
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Old November 18th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #8
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Raw footage and other media files are stored in the Events folder (unless you decide to keep them in a separate folder then the Events folder will have aliases of those files after importing). All timelines including filters info, title information and so on are kept in the Projects folder. Renders are kept here as well. If you don't have automatic rendering activated, this folder stays small. Basic transitions, filters and generators that FCPX uses are kept in the Movie folder on your system drive. These folders have to be respected if you expect to be able to use the info within. Generally it's best to use FCPX's media management to transfer these files from drive to drive.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 10:42 PM   #9
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wilson View Post
Watched some tutorials and found this paper:
http://blogs.saic.edu/fvnmatech/file...ICS_091112.pdf

For a given "Job" using FCP X, where exactly are the various media files organized with respect to the FCP X Events and Projects folders?
Hold that thought.

The tea leaf readers are starting to talk about potential changes to X's Event Project structure in the next release.

For more info, check out the Alex4d website where there's a lot of chatter about code in the new iMovie that hints that the "under the hood" structure of how X tracks - and how X users can store - their work.

All that *might* be evolving when the new X ships in the next few weeks.
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Old November 19th, 2013, 10:15 AM   #10
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Hohauser View Post
... Generally it's best to use FCPX's media management to transfer these files from drive to drive.
Thanks. What do you mean by "Raw Footage": Original Camera folders or the edit format .mov? I've always enjoyed the ability to simply reconnect files in my Project to wherever I happen to put the Capture Scratch folder (edit files) on my drives and keep my original camera files in folders on archive disks. Is the relationship between Events and the video and stills media now brittle and can't be managed separately using the Finder? That is, you now have to keep the same drive/directory structure between the event and media with no hope of reconnecting it should something change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davis View Post
...The tea leaf readers are starting to talk about potential changes to X's Event Project structure in the next release... there's a lot of chatter about code in the new iMovie that hints that the "under the hood" structure of how X tracks - and how X users can store - their work. All that *might* be evolving when the new X ships in the next few weeks.
I'm sure there's no more vitriol I can add to the discussion that hasn't been said many times over about Apple's user interface prowess. But thanks for the heads up. I see the mucking around with the relationships in the UI he discusses. Unfortunately FCP X 10.1 will probably be Mavericks only and I have zero interest in moving to Mavericks anytime soon as so many other things I need are broken.

I'm still looking for best practices for FCP X in terms of organizing media so it can be used in FCP X event tho it was previously imported into FCP 7 and vice versa if I need to use footage imported by FCP X in an older FCP 7 sequence. TIA
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Old November 19th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #11
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

If you are importing from a camera card, I find it best to let FCPX import the files to the Events folder. You can choose to let FCPX optimize the files for editing by converting to ProRes during the import or you can let the files stay in the original codec but with a QuickTime wrapper to save space. Some camera files are not recognized by FCPX without the entire card directory structure intact so you need that in place to import those files.

If you are working with files from other sources or cameras that make mov files, you can make folders of those files and place them wherever you want. All FCPX will do is make alias files as long as you don't have the option box for copying the files into the Events folder checked. If you change the directories, it's easy to reconnect the files in FCPX.

As long as the structures of the Events and Projects folders are not manually played with, that is you let FCPX do all the work within those folders, it's no more brittle than FCP7.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:27 AM   #12
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

@William - Thanks. FCP is not the only tool I use. I want complete separation of my edit media from the FCP X folder structure.

FYI ... a breadcrumb for those who follow ... here's an Apple article on how to install FCP X without cratering FCS 3. It's a year old and I don't know if it's still a problem. Will followup as needed if I install FCP X: Final Cut Pro X, Motion 5, Compressor 4: Installation best practices
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Old November 21st, 2013, 03:22 PM   #13
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Les - maybe this can help out a bit.

This is the basic file structure I'm using but how one sets up their own file organization can obviously be different. This is the structure on the MacBook Pro:

Macintosh HD > Users > [User name] > Movies > [File folders 1, 2, 3, . all at the same level]

In my case some of the File folders 1, 2, 3, etc related to Final Cut are:

Motion Templates
Final Cut Events
Camera(s) (JVC GZ-HD7 and others)
Final Cut Projects
ClipWrap
etc.

The other cameras include a couple "still" cameras and another older video camera
There are other folders under "Movies" but these are the main FCPX related ones.

Workflow:
1. Create a new folder for the *.mov files yyyymmdd [name] under Camera (JVC GZ-HD7) or under a subfolder yyyy.
2. [if camera clips must be converted] Open ClipWrap and tell it where to save the clip files that have been converted (see new folder in the above step)
3. Connect camera to computer and copy camera clip files to the ClipWrap application to convert them from *.tod to *.mov. ClipWrap automatically saves all the converted files to the location specified above.
4. Verify that all the files were copied and properly converted then delete the files from the camera. Can also do this after the next step and it may actually be safer.
5. Open FCPX and create a new Event folder then import the *.mov files that I want (not necessarily all of them). Import any still images, f.e., *.jpeg.
6. Create Final Cut Project yyyymmdd [name] and start editing using the files in the Event folder


This shot shows the contents of a typical Project folder.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:47 PM   #14
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

Thanks for the details. It helps the discussion and my understanding. For me, I keep the original camera files on a disk drive in my library kinda like storing film. It's the original. Then I do the import from it so the "edit files" are created. In this case the .movs that would go into your Camera folders. Could use ClipWrap or the Sony XDCAM utility for that.

Any problem with those camera folders being on a different drive (I have 3 to work with in a Mac Pro)? Does the FCP X Importer let you import them to a drive other than the one where the Events folder is or do you have to have enough space for them first and then use an FCP X utility to move them?
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:24 PM   #15
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Re: Migrating to FCP X. Maybe. Issues having both installed? XDCAM Issues?

If the camera files are recognized by FCPX as mov files you can leave them wherever you want. Camera files such as AvcHD are not and you have either import them into an Events folder, which can be wherever you want, or use a program like ClipWrap to get the QuickTime wrapper on it.
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