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Old November 1st, 2008, 02:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bill Davis View Post
I was trying to stay out of this, but really...

If someone is actually a working professional - that is, someone making their living creating video for profit - the idea that they'd care about this level of cost difference is silly.

The extra to pay the difference between a MacBook and a PRO - for most working professionals - can likely be hidden in the craft services budget - or by hiring one less PA and dragging your own cases around for a couple of shoots.

Apple makes various levels of tools for various classes of users, just like everyone from guitar manufactuers to tennis racquet companies.

Get over the petty squabbles about the tools. If you can't afford the best yet, so what? What you CAN do with the basic level stuff is essentially more than ALL the capabilities I had available when I started working in multi-million dollar dedicated post houses years ago.

So put the gear gripes away and get to work!

While you're bemoaning what you didn't get in the latest upgrade, some snot-nosed kid who doesn't understand or even THINK ABOUT what the machine might NOT be able to do - is out there somewhere getting ready to steal your clients.

FWIW.
I agree if your a professional its a waste of time complaining about this sort of stuff. ante up the cash get what you need.

The one thing I feel is a legitimate complaint is how apple on more than one occasion recently has removed pre-existing features of their consumer products. New versions are supposed to be better not worse. For example, the newer version of iMovie they took away a power feature because they felt it was competing too much with FCP. As a result ppl started downgrading.

In regards to mb fw removal. Apple has touted that they're multimedia friendly as opposed to microsoft. Many choose mac because its easy download home movies from their camcorders and edit with iMovie. I just think its underhanded bad business to penalize your customer. If apple feels the need to differentiate product lines then add features to the pro line.
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Old November 1st, 2008, 04:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
BluRay just sucks in practice. The visual quality of the movies are nearly indistinguishable from DVD resolution on my 52" Sony Bravia.
Well my experience is certainly different. I have a new Sony BDP-S350 player connnected via HDMI to a Sony Bravia 46" KDL-46VW4100 LCD TV. I don't see anything like the startup times you mention - seems very comparable to a regular DVD player. Of course, I wish it were faster.

It varies from movie to movie, but I am quite impressed with most of the blu-ray disks I have. Will the standard survive the test of time? No idea. Does the added cost justify the quality difference? That's a personal decision which everyone needs to make for themselves.

I took photos of the screen with the new Blu-Ray version of 2001 vs. the anamorphic DVD special edition which came out about a year ago. These were taken with my little Canon SD600 and resized to 1920 pixels wide. Click on the attachments below and judge for yourself (you will need to click on the image a couple times to zoom in to 100%). Notice that you wouldn't even realize the arms of the spacesuit are ribbed if you only looked at the DVD version.
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What's Apple doing?  (Answer: I don't know)-2001_bd.jpg   What's Apple doing?  (Answer: I don't know)-2001_dvd.jpg  

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Old November 1st, 2008, 04:30 PM   #33
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Here's a closer screenshot which shows individual pixels for comparison. In addition to the higher resolution, there are fewer compression artifacts visible in the Blu-Ray version - look around the edges of the spacesuit for example.
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What's Apple doing?  (Answer: I don't know)-bd.jpg   What's Apple doing?  (Answer: I don't know)-dvd.jpg  

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Old November 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Pete Cofran View Post
I just think its underhanded bad business to penalize your customer.
I guess the jury is still out on this, but Apple has been steadily gaining market share from the other companies:

Apple gaining North American notebook share | Latest Apple Computer News - CNET News

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Cnet.com
September 17, 2008 10:00 AM PDT
Market research figures released Wednesday have Apple's share of the North American market for notebooks, up from 6.6 percent to 10.6 percent in the second quarter of this year, compared to last year. Every other major notebook maker's market share was either flat or down
And even though they're more expensive, they're holding their own in the market.

Netbooks' Popularity Threatens PC Makers' Profits - Barrons.com

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BARRON'S
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2008
Late last week, seven of the top 10 best-selling laptops on Amazon.com were priced under $600; the list included models from Acer, Asus, Toshiba and HP. (The other three laptops on the top 10 list are from Apple [AAPL], and are at the other end of the price curve.)
I don't use PC laptops, but the last time I looked only the higher end models included firewire ports. Has this changed?
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 11:43 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis View Post
BluRay just sucks in practice. The visual quality of the movies are nearly indistinguishable from DVD resolution on my 52" Sony Bravia. This is probably due in part that movies aren't in HD-level focus most of the time, and possibly the transfer process. The rental selection just isn't growing fast enough as shops seem to have new releases for sale in a glass case while the same titles are available for rental a month later, at least at Blockbuster. Netflix is better in that regard.

I own an early Sony BluRay player, the DSP-S300, and I'm find BluRay movies that don't play (yesterday, Scorpion King II) at all, even with the latest firmware upgrades. The player needs a minute to startup, 20 seconds to begin reading a disk, and 20 seconds to eject a disk. "Play" on the remote or front panel doesn't commence playback. "Select" is the new play. Some disks need five minutes or more to startup, the time needed to load some fancy menu system. This just turns me off from watching these movies as much as I like the idea. Sony PS3 aside, the bulk of the BluRay players in existence don't handle BD-Rs to my knowledge.

The alternative to BluRay seems to be these "HD" movies channels which offer the blockiest video I've ever seen. Many of the "HD" movies are 4:3 DVDs, and at least half HD movies are so blocky that they're much worse than regular DVDs. I watch portions of them to keep up with the industry, as I don't need to watch "Purple Rain" (which I liked, Prince was awesome at that time) 50 times.

Given that Apple has pushed Firewire all of these years, it's surprising that this feature is missing. However, I don't think that BluRay or Firewire are on the minds of any stock investors, particularly in the last month.
I have Sony Bravia 40" 1080p with Sony Blue-Ray 350. Slow loading times on 300 was a problem, hence Sony fixed it on the 350 model. My loading times are no different from a DVD player. But the difference in picture quality is noticeable. I watched back to back same move on DVD and BR and you can't even compare picture quality. To me it's the same as the difference between VHS and DVD in the past.
From a professional stand point: why bother buying an HD camera if you are going to output it on DVD? Simply doesn't make any sense.
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 12:52 PM   #36
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From a professional stand point: why bother buying an HD camera if you are going to output it on DVD? Simply doesn't make any sense.
I don't like the direction Apple is going with this, but I do have to react on this sentence. Answer on your question:

- being future-proof
- being able to reframe in post
- having a more detailed image overall, even after compressing for dvd.
- ...
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 05:04 PM   #37
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Mathieu, I am not saying Apple is bad. I think this company was putting out one of the best product on the market. Hence there are some people working on G4. I think for most of the part they had a stable OS (unlike Macroshaft), good hardware- hence it was a choice for people working in media industry. I still like my G5 over any PC. I also think, that Apple was supported by people like us- video, photo and graphic art professionals. However I don't like the direction Apple is taking now. Looks to me they jump the band wagon of mass sales forgetting the main supporters. Sorry- both my cameras are still connecting via fire wire. I am not about to drop 6K on new Sony or Panny- I have perfectly working camera, producing awesome images. I can see spending a few hundred bucks on a new BR drive, but that's where it ends. Until I know I can burn BR discs on my computer I am putting on hold any purchases from Apple. I think the technology is here and now and I think it's silly to pretend other wise. I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now!
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 10:51 PM   #38
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SNIP I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now![/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, none of us have a real vote on the pace of innovation.

I was just scanning a thread on another board where the subject was "show control" of multiple image presentations in museums.

One guy was asking another how he sync'd his projectors. He specified the industrial models of DVD players he'd used the previous spring for his museum display installations, then added something like...

"that's how we did it last year. This year, all our video content is going on compact flash cards to be delivered to screens digitally. No moving parts or spinning disc units is a huge relief when you have to serve video 24/7."

The point is that spinning physical discs, while inescapably reliable and very comfortable for most of us currently, it's NOT the way the industry is moving.

I KNOW that technologies like BluRay have a place right now. But for how long? Essentially, the idea that you need a piece of single use plastic on which to store and forward your content is getting kinda quaint, kinda fast.

Makes me uncomfortable. I remember all the times I've had to go to my 400 plus tape wall of DVCAM masters to pull old field footage for clients, and the number of "legacy" hard drives in my back room that at some point stopped working BEFORE I got the data totally backed up and my zen calmness quotient sinks pretty fast.

But what are you gonna do?

Progress - even when it's part joyful progress and part damnable capability loss - remains inevitable.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 12:15 AM   #39
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I'm not sure if "disturbing trend" is the right word. The issue goes back to Apple's desire to control both the software and hardware. Blue Ray represents this conflict of interest, where Apple bet on HD DVD and now would rather push customers towards download delivery, rather than admit defeat and adopt BR.

Apple's decision isn't an impartial move to offer the right HD technology to its customer. They're using their hardware monopoly as means to block the BR and funnel customers into they're itunes model whether they like it or not. Consumers today want choice. Imagine if Microsoft went the Apple route to monopolize the hardware side (ie Windows would only run on computers made by Microsoft) and then wouldn't support BR so you'd have to use Microsoft's online service.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 10:38 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pete Cofran View Post
I'm not sure if "disturbing trend" is the right word. The issue goes back to Apple's desire to control both the software and hardware. Blue Ray represents this conflict of interest, where Apple bet on HD DVD and now would rather push customers towards download delivery, rather than admit defeat and adopt BR.

Apple's decision isn't an impartial move to offer the right HD technology to its customer. They're using their hardware monopoly as means to block the BR and funnel customers into they're itunes model whether they like it or not. Consumers today want choice. Imagine if Microsoft went the Apple route to monopolize the hardware side (ie Windows would only run on computers made by Microsoft) and then wouldn't support BR so you'd have to use Microsoft's online service.
Apple was a member of both HiDef DVD organizations. Existing technology in Apple's computers allowed limited HD-DVD burning functionally and Apple tried to capitalize on that for largely PR reasons (Hey, look at us offering HiDef authoring before anyone else). Apple was a leader in desktop DVD authoring and this made many assume Apple would be a leader again once the technology was finalized. Of course as we all know Apple became even more involved in media distribution and now, as you said, BR is being seen as a competitor. Apple wants consumers to use the iTMS and AppleTV for their video purchases and rentals not BR and that consumer-centric decision unfortunately ripples into their professional user base that wants/needs BR.


-A
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:00 AM   #41
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I recall one of Apples major selling points was 'comes equipped with firewire' - poor PC's had to add a card if they wanted it.

Oops.


Part of the problems is perspective. Apple has always had a MAJOR share of graphics/media users in the professional world.

Trouble is, that's a small percentage of the overall market for computers. Apple still represents a small share of the total marketplace - yes, yes, 'growing' - but is that because of their changes?

So if you're a graphics/media user - 'Everyone' uses Apple. They're 'everywhere'. On the other hand, if you're a mom with three kids looking for desktop computers - go down to Walmart and buy a couple of PC clones and you're done. Stand in the software aisle and there's tons of apps for windows, a smaller aisle for Apple.

I was on the verge of getting a Macbook Pro - I'll have to decide in the next month - running AVID MC... Maybe I'll buy an 'older' version. I want a Matte screen, firewire 400 for my decks and cameras and the four drives I already have.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:47 AM   #42
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I was on the verge of getting a Macbook Pro - I'll have to decide in the next month - running AVID MC... Maybe I'll buy an 'older' version. I want a Matte screen, firewire 400 for my decks and cameras and the four drives I already have.
The MacBook Pro still has firewire so all you need is a 400 to 800 adaptor cable for your deck. I have a bunch of these lying around - they've been included for free with every firewire 800 drive I've bought so they can't be very expensive.

I don't really see how this changes the equation for "graphics/media users in the professional world". The "pro's" are going to buy the "pro" model.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 01:34 PM   #43
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Mathieu, I am not saying Apple is bad. I think this company was putting out one of the best product on the market. Hence there are some people working on G4. I think for most of the part they had a stable OS (unlike Macroshaft), good hardware- hence it was a choice for people working in media industry. I still like my G5 over any PC. I also think, that Apple was supported by people like us- video, photo and graphic art professionals. However I don't like the direction Apple is taking now. Looks to me they jump the band wagon of mass sales forgetting the main supporters. Sorry- both my cameras are still connecting via fire wire. I am not about to drop 6K on new Sony or Panny- I have perfectly working camera, producing awesome images. I can see spending a few hundred bucks on a new BR drive, but that's where it ends. Until I know I can burn BR discs on my computer I am putting on hold any purchases from Apple. I think the technology is here and now and I think it's silly to pretend other wise. I don't want to be future proof, I want to see the results of my work using the technology in my living room now!
Hi Robert,

look at my earlier posts in this thread. I'm the first one to say that I also don't like the direction Apple is going with this, I even said so literally I think a few posts back.
So, we completely agree on that.
Just wanted to respond on the situation about buying an HD-camera for SD purposes.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 05:08 PM   #44
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Boyd,

I think quite a few 'prosumers' - those on the border between full-on professional and part time hobbyist - will NOT be moving up to the MacBook Pro. That seems to be the breaking point in the discussion - that the Macbooks are - for better or worse - forcing people UP a level of cost, or OUT into the PC market because of decreased functionality of the MacBooks.

Not clear to me if the single FIREWIRE 800 with a 400 adapter/converter will work with the DSR 11??? Anyone run one with the adapter on an 800 port? What about chaining drives, since you're using one bus? If you're running through the adapter, than you're limited to 400, if one element in the chain runs that way, correct?
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 05:14 PM   #45
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A couple of things...

I don't think Apple was ever the leader in DVD authoring as one poster said. I believe that honour goes to Scenarist.

Also firewire 400 ports are used frequently. Pretty much all PCs have them from the cheap $500 laptops up.

I use my firewire regularly for OnLocation capturing live from my camera and for monitoring.

Those of you saying who would edit on a laptop anyway...well yes laptops are slower but being able to shoot on set to laptop and edit with the client and deliver that day without heading back to the office is very useful. As is the ability to edit on a desktop, transfer the project across take the laptop to the client and demo it and make any suggested changes as you are sitting there.

I think dropping firewire was a very poor move and not supporting BR was equally poor.

The Adobe CS4 line of products has set a very high standard that is cross platform and I hope many people switch to it. The power of dynamic linking and after effects alone should be enough to convince many users.
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