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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #1
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Wrong field order?

Hey all,

I'm outputting my first project done on Final Cut Pro, so I'm new on the mac side. The final DVD exhibits what looks like wrong field order processing. You know, the separation that you see in the fields on pans and fast movements.

-Standard DV project.
-I exported my rendered timeline to a self-contained Quicktime movie using "current settings".
-Imported that into Compressor and compressed using one of the DVD NTSC presets, changing only the data rate.
-Created the DVD from the resulting m2v using Encore.
-Tested on my TV, and I see the field order problem.

So I thought maybe Compressor changed the field order somehow. I re-encoded with Procoder, which I use all the time with great results.

Same problem with finished DVD.

So I went back to check my settings.

My sequence in final cut shows it is indeed DV, with lower field first.

My Compressor project shows lower field first.

So where is the problem? Any ideas?

I'll do some tests with trying the "wrong" field order to see if that fixes it, but where should I change it? In final cut? In compressor?

Or should I just de-interlace? Again where?

The video looks great on my MacBook Pro, but the LCD displays progressive, I believe, so I don't know if I would see the field order problem there.

This is very frustrating. I used to working with AVID on my PC and never have this trouble. It seems like it should be very straightforward. Sigh.

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #2
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I'm out of my pay grade here because we seldom make DVD's -- we do web video and all our stuff is output as deinterlaced. But when we have had occasion to make a DVD for somebody it's worked fine with the deinterlaced quicktime file, output through DVD Studio Pro, which comes with FCP.

Maybe: deinterlacing the quicktime file would help. Then making the DVD directly from that and letting the DVD program handle the encoding?

I'm not sure why the Compressor step and then Encore, I'm suspecting the mpeg step may be the culprit...but wait for somebody who really knows DVD, as I'm working on limited experience here...../Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team
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Old May 6th, 2009, 09:49 AM   #3
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Thanks Battle.

By the way, I nearly started a thread to find the coolest DVINFO member names, and I was going to nominate yours as my favourite!

I may deinterlace, but I would prefer not to process the file further if possible. I think deinterlacing reduces your resolution depending on how it's done (throwing away a field, or blending).
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Old May 6th, 2009, 10:09 AM   #4
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Thanks, it's a family name, got stuck with it at an early age...

What you're describing --- breaking up on pans -- sounds like mpeg problems we have seen. Like I say, I'm no dvd expert, but I have noticed that the quality we get by just sending the quicktime file to dvd studio works fine. Maybe it's the m2v you're making?

Perhaps you are doing a lot of extra processing by going through compressor and then through encore? Might be worth a try to just drop your .mov file into either dvd studio or encore and see what happens.

I have never wrapped my head around Compressor, probably I should (we do everything in either Quicktime or Sorenson Squeeze) but somehow I'm thinking it's an unnecessary step to make the dvd...worth a shot, maybe....or maybe I'm missing something important...:) /bvaughan
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Old May 6th, 2009, 10:31 AM   #5
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Hi Battle,

Actually, the file only gets compressed once. Either in Compressor (or ProCoder), or by Encore (or DVD Studio). Encore doesn't re-compress it, just uses it as a source. Generally, you get a better quality result with a dedicated compressor like Procoder.

But it's a good idea to try using Encore to compress it. It's worth a shot, for sure. You've given me another test to try!

I use Squeeze as well for stuff destined for the web. Works great, but I've never been happy with its mpeg output for DVD.

And I agree the Compressor interface takes some getting used to.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 10:57 AM   #6
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Just remembered something else.

The project came to me as a bare FCP project with the clips already captured. I opened the project and created a sequence. Started to edit.

At one point, I noticed that for some reason, the sequence was set as HDV.

I changed the sequence properties to DV anamorphic, selected all the clips and removed the distortion attributes to get the clips back to the proper size.

Would this have anything to do with it? I not experienced enough in Final Cut to know if this would make any difference.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 02:03 PM   #7
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I think that may be the problem. To test, I dropped an NTSC DV file on an hdv timeline and output as quicktime movie and as quicktime conversion with prores422....files blew up to hdv size, and when dropped on the DVD Pro timeline showed a huge jaggie problem, despite deinterlacing. It may not be interlacing, maybe an mpeg conversion artifact, since in my case anyway, it only shows up in the parts that are moving.

When I exported from an NTSC timeline with quicktime conversion, deinterlaced, prores422, the DVD simulation was very clean. Suggest all you need do is open a new sequence with the appropriate settings in the same project and copy the clips there; try just exporting as a quicktime conversion with prores422 and drop the clips on the dvd pro timeline to see...there is a simulation function that will show you what the resulting dvd will look like. Very fast, no intermediate stuff to do, and my instinct tells me maybe the two Apple programs like each other better than an Apple and an Adobe...although I don't know that for sure. The clips attached are frame grabs from the DVD Pro timeline.


The mismatch is odd, if you have 6.0.5, version anyway, is that FCP recognizes the format of your first clip and offers to set the sequence setting appropriately for that clip if there's a mismatch. Hope this helps / Bvaughan
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Wrong field order?-hdv-timeline.png  
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Last edited by Battle Vaughan; May 6th, 2009 at 02:16 PM. Reason: add images
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Old May 6th, 2009, 02:28 PM   #8
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Hi, Battle. Your png really shows the effect I'm seeing.

Since my last post, I tried three deinterlacing methods in ProCoder, all of which gave me a very acceptable result.

I also tried letting Encore encode for me. This didn't work. I got the same motion field problem as before.

I think I'll go with the de-interlaced version for now, for the sake of my sanity, and move on. If that doesn't work, I'm gonna try your method! I'd have to pull up my sleeves and start to learn DVD Studio Pro, though. That's one tough program...

Thanks again. Very kind of you to spend the time to help me out. It's much appreciated.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #9
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My pleasure, fortunately a slow day here today. Two words about learning dvd pro: lynda.com. Great short tutorials, inexpensive signup.

I really think this is not interlacing as it doesn't appear to affect the entire image, it looks like mpeg artifacting from, probably, dosey-doe with the hdv.

The only dvd's we make are when somebody wants a copy of a piece we've done, so we don't have to worry about chapters and markers and stuff ...drop the qt hires file in assets, pick it as first play, and burn it....but I think the program looks a lot more intimidating than it proves to be, although I must confess I find Encore easier to figure out on my own....hope it all works out for you! / BV
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Old May 6th, 2009, 03:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Vaughan View Post
I really think this is not interlacing as it doesn't appear to affect the entire image, it looks like mpeg artifacting from, probably, dosey-doe with the hdv.
I wondered that. But the video never was formatted as HDV, it was just the sequence properties. So really it's as if I added a resize effect, then removed it. Can't see how that would do anything, but I agree the problem LOOKS like it could be that.

Anyway, I hope my next project goes more smoothly. I was learning Final Cut as I went through it, and it was frustrating as hell. Took forever to complete, and this DVD problem at the very end, when I thought I was finally done, really took the cake.

I never had nearly as much trouble learning Avid. But that's another story...

All the best,
Vito
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Old May 6th, 2009, 03:21 PM   #11
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The reason I think that is that the effect doesn't show up when playing the file back in Quicktime. When the same file is imported into DVD Pro, which converts to an mpeg stream for the dvd if I am not mistaken, the artifacts show up then. And if your sequence is HDV and you output at current settings, yes, you converted to HDV...... Ain't technology fun? / best wishes / BV
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Old May 6th, 2009, 03:39 PM   #12
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And if your sequence is HDV and you output at current settings, yes, you converted to HDV...... Ain't technology fun? / best wishes / BV
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I noticed at one point the sequence properties were set to HDV, although the clips were captured as DV. I then changed the sequence properties to DV. So when I exported, it wasn't as HDV.

Don't know how the sequence got set to HDV. When I get better at Final Cut, I'll be able to avoid these mistakes.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 06:27 PM   #13
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I expect what has happened is that when the DV clips were edited into an HDV timeline, by default FCP add a 'Shift Fields' filter to each of the clips.

This is because DV is lower field and HDV is upper. When you changed the sequence to DV these filter stayed in place.

The main problem here is that you are not monitoring correctly. You cannot second guess field order problems on anything other that an interlaced monitor.

If you double click an item on the timeline and check the filters tab you should find they all have this filter applied. You need to remove them all. There is a right-click short cut to remove filters from multiple clips, but this will remove all the other filter such as Colour Correction etc.

If you had been monitoring on an interlaced monitor you would have spotted it immediately.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #14
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I expect what has happened is that when the DV clips were edited into an HDV timeline, by default FCP add a 'Shift Fields' filter to each of the clips.
Hotdamn, Duncan! You called it! I got all excited with your suggestion and checked it out right away. Sure enough, each clip has that effect. Now I can remove those and output it correctly.

Quote:
The main problem here is that you are not monitoring correctly. You cannot second guess field order problems on anything other that an interlaced monitor.
Yes, I know that.

I'll get right on it and see if my wife will let me put a Matrox MXO and a broadcast CRT on the dining room table with my hard drives and laptop. She loves that kind of stuff...

Thanks a million, you guys, for helping me out. I'm a happy camper!
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Old May 7th, 2009, 02:30 AM   #15
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If you want a cheap way to monitor, just use any DV-in enabled camcorder connected to your Mac via Firewire and plug the camera analogue out into a CRT. In most some cases you can tell it's wrong on the camcorder screen.

That's how I used to monitor in the days before the AJA IO, when I was offlining on FCP2/3 and online on Quantel Henry.

Duncan.
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