Need advice for FCP edit, Prores vs XDCAM at DVinfo.net

Simon Denny · October 30th, 2009, 03:37 PM

I have shot a wedding on my Sony EX1 @ 1920x 1080i and also on my Sony F350 1440 x 1080i. The EX1 was used as second cam only for the ceremony.

I’m trying to edit this on my Mac Book Pro 17” with 4G of Ram.
The client wants a HD Blu_Ray DVD and I was thinking of editing this in 1440 x 1080i Seq in Final Cut Pro. This is proving to be to taxing on the MBP and was thinking of converting all footage to Prores 1440 x 1080i.

Another thought was to up convert the F350 to 1920 x 1080i Prorez but will this produce a softer image?
I think 1440 x 1080i should be enough for HD viewing considering most of the shoot was shot on the Sony F350.

I’m after some thoughts on this workflow and if indeed this is the best option for the Sony EX1 to integrate with the F350. Also any thoughts on using Prores as the main editing codec vs the Sony XDCAM codec at 35 mbs.

Thanks
Simon

Mike Barber · October 31st, 2009, 11:36 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 1440x1080 footage supposed to "expand" to a 1920x1080 frame from a pixel aspect ratio "correction"? The EX1 shoots square pixels whereas the F350, I believe, shoots non-square pixels. Put both on a 1920x1080 square pixel timeline and, if necessary, select all the F350 footage and then Modify > Conform to Sequence and you should be set, I would think.

If you needed to convert all your footage to ProRes 1920x1080, I doubt you would loose any significant sharpness (if any at all).

Chuck Spaulding · October 31st, 2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Ash

I have shot a wedding on my Sony EX1 @ 1920x 1080i and also on my Sony F350 1440 x 1080i. The EX1 was used as second cam only for the ceremony.

I’m trying to edit this on my Mac Book Pro 17” with 4G of Ram.
The client wants a HD Blu_Ray DVD and I was thinking of editing this in 1440 x 1080i Seq in Final Cut Pro. This is proving to be to taxing on the MBP and was thinking of converting all footage to Prores 1440 x 1080i.

Another thought was to up convert the F350 to 1920 x 1080i Prorez but will this produce a softer image?
I think 1440 x 1080i should be enough for HD viewing considering most of the shoot was shot on the Sony F350.

I’m after some thoughts on this workflow and if indeed this is the best option for the Sony EX1 to integrate with the F350. Also any thoughts on using Prores as the main editing codec vs the Sony XDCAM codec at 35 mbs.

Thanks
Simon

Its been a while since I've had to deal with this, we switched to XDCAM about a year ago so I haven't had to deal with mixing HDV and XDCAM in some time.

Having bored you with that information as I recall you have a couple of choices, edit using the XDCAM EX Easy setup and import your HDV footage into that project, set your render option to "ProRes" in user prefs and when you place the HDV footage into the timeline you might get a green render bard but you should not have to render.

Another option is to choose ProRes 1920x1080 in your sequence settings and edit as normal. The reason it takes so long to edit XDCAM footage in a 1440 timeline is because it has to scale the 1920 footage down. Mike is correct, FCP will multiply the horizontal by 1.2 (I think) and you'll end up with a 1920x1080 output.

Hope this helps.

Simon Denny · October 31st, 2009, 01:50 PM

Thanks for the info.
I have done some tests converting EX1 footage to HDV 1440 Prores and this looks good. I will do some tests converting the F350 1440 HDV to 1920 Prores and see how this looks.
I have neber used the Conform to Sequence before so I might try this also.

Thanks

Chuck Spaulding · October 31st, 2009, 02:02 PM

Hi Simon,

in the workflow that I mentioned you don't have to convert anything to ProRes, just edit using a ProRes Sequence, the XDCAM footage should work as is and the HDV (1440) might have a green render bar above those clips in a sequence, means they will have to be rendered for output but will edit fine.

Also go into the your user preferences and set the render preferences to ProRes so if you do render the HDV in the timeline the render files will be ProRes and won't require rendering again on output. If you want, you can think of this as converting your HDV footage as you go.

Or do the same in a XDCAM EX timeline, the only difference is that you'll output an XDCAM 35VBR quicktime, which makes great Blu-ray disks.

In either case you do NOT have to convert any footage.

Simon Denny · November 1st, 2009, 01:22 AM

Hey Chuck,

I'm a bit confused abut this setup.
So in order to set this seq up, I need to go into seq settings and change the Quicktime video settings, compressor settings to ProRes 422 HQ. Is this right? or am I complicating this.

Thanks

Chuck Spaulding · November 1st, 2009, 02:15 AM

Hi Simon, yes this can get quite confusing.

After you launch a new project go to Sequence/Sequence Settings and in that control panel choose 1920x1080 - HDTV 1080i(16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio - Square [leave anamorphic unchecked
Field Dominance - [if you shot 60i] set to Upper (odd) [if you shot 30P] set to none
Editing timebase - to whatever you shot. We shoot 29.97 for example.
Quicktime video settings [here's where you have a choice
Compressor XDCAM EX 1080p30 (35VBR) OR Apple ProRess 422.
leave quality @ 100 and audio whatever you like.

A quick note about ProRes, depending on which version of FCP your using, ProRes 422 is approximately 140Mb/sec and ProResHQ is 220Mb/sec. You would only need the HQ if you were going out to film. In FCP7 Apple added some needed variations to this, for Blu-ray HD, ProRes (LT) which I believe is 100Mb/sec is probably enough.

Next, under the Final Cut Pro drop down go to User Preferences/Render Control where you can choose the codec to use to create render files, you can choose Same as Sequence but in your case you want to choose Apple ProRes 422 (HDV, XDCAM HD/EX/HD422 only). This is what gets rendered when you hit command R and are saved in the render files folder with you scratch disk etc..

As long as your frame rates are the same, if you choose either of these two options you shouldn't get any render bars when you place an XDCAM clip into your sequence and the worst that you should get is a green render bar when you place an HDV into the same sequence. In both cases you do not have to convert either format to ProRes.

If you want to Master (Export) to ProRes then choose a ProRes Sequence, if you want to Export an XDCAM quicktime then choose that sequence. Keep in mind that the ProRes file will be significantly larger and depending on what your doing you probably can't see the difference. And something more to add to the mix the ProRes will render/Export quicker.

Where are you in Australia? I'm from Geelong.

Hope this helps.

Thanh Nguyen · May 28th, 2010, 05:29 AM

Thank you Chuck

This is an old thread but good information. I was wonder the same thing how to mix my XHA1s with EX3. Will be shooting 1080 30p (i will set highest setting on the ex3). And i think this pretty much answer my question which i have not test it yet. I have some shooting coming in july and would love to use both of the camera.

Just wondering if this would be out of sync for example like for multi cam interview. Will the footages from one out sync other's footages audio??

What if I add a 5dm2 will there be any problem. I have to use mpegclip to transcode h.264 to Proress to edit but will there be a problem in sync again audio and video??

If output to blu-ray which is best option for time saving and space saving but highest quality(quality are priority). What If i want SD to DVD from blu-ray project. Which methood would you recommannd best for Quality. I have been reading that compressor dont do a good job converting HD to SD for DVD. Any suggestion please point me to the right direction. Thank you a bunch

October 30th, 2009, 03:37 PM	#1
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Need advice for FCP edit, Prores vs XDCAM I have shot a wedding on my Sony EX1 @ 1920x 1080i and also on my Sony F350 1440 x 1080i. The EX1 was used as second cam only for the ceremony. I’m trying to edit this on my Mac Book Pro 17” with 4G of Ram. The client wants a HD Blu_Ray DVD and I was thinking of editing this in 1440 x 1080i Seq in Final Cut Pro. This is proving to be to taxing on the MBP and was thinking of converting all footage to Prores 1440 x 1080i. Another thought was to up convert the F350 to 1920 x 1080i Prorez but will this produce a softer image? I think 1440 x 1080i should be enough for HD viewing considering most of the shoot was shot on the Sony F350. I’m after some thoughts on this workflow and if indeed this is the best option for the Sony EX1 to integrate with the F350. Also any thoughts on using Prores as the main editing codec vs the Sony XDCAM codec at 35 mbs. Thanks Simon

October 31st, 2009, 11:36 AM	#2
Mike Barber Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto ON Canada Posts: 731	Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 1440x1080 footage supposed to "expand" to a 1920x1080 frame from a pixel aspect ratio "correction"? The EX1 shoots square pixels whereas the F350, I believe, shoots non-square pixels. Put both on a 1920x1080 square pixel timeline and, if necessary, select all the F350 footage and then Modify > Conform to Sequence and you should be set, I would think. If you needed to convert all your footage to ProRes 1920x1080, I doubt you would loose any significant sharpness (if any at all). __________________ Mike Barber "I'm laughing to stop myself from screaming."

October 31st, 2009, 01:50 PM	#4
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Thanks for the info. I have done some tests converting EX1 footage to HDV 1440 Prores and this looks good. I will do some tests converting the F350 1440 HDV to 1920 Prores and see how this looks. I have neber used the Conform to Sequence before so I might try this also. Thanks

October 31st, 2009, 02:02 PM	#5
Chuck Spaulding Trustee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks Posts: 1,099	Hi Simon, in the workflow that I mentioned you don't have to convert anything to ProRes, just edit using a ProRes Sequence, the XDCAM footage should work as is and the HDV (1440) might have a green render bar above those clips in a sequence, means they will have to be rendered for output but will edit fine. Also go into the your user preferences and set the render preferences to ProRes so if you do render the HDV in the timeline the render files will be ProRes and won't require rendering again on output. If you want, you can think of this as converting your HDV footage as you go. Or do the same in a XDCAM EX timeline, the only difference is that you'll output an XDCAM 35VBR quicktime, which makes great Blu-ray disks. In either case you do NOT have to convert any footage.

November 1st, 2009, 01:22 AM	#6
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Hey Chuck, I'm a bit confused abut this setup. So in order to set this seq up, I need to go into seq settings and change the Quicktime video settings, compressor settings to ProRes 422 HQ. Is this right? or am I complicating this. Thanks

November 1st, 2009, 02:15 AM	#7
Chuck Spaulding Trustee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks Posts: 1,099	Hi Simon, yes this can get quite confusing. After you launch a new project go to Sequence/Sequence Settings and in that control panel choose 1920x1080 - HDTV 1080i(16:9) Pixel Aspect Ratio - Square [leave anamorphic unchecked Field Dominance - [if you shot 60i] set to Upper (odd) [if you shot 30P] set to none Editing timebase - to whatever you shot. We shoot 29.97 for example. Quicktime video settings [here's where you have a choice Compressor XDCAM EX 1080p30 (35VBR) OR Apple ProRess 422. leave quality @ 100 and audio whatever you like. A quick note about ProRes, depending on which version of FCP your using, ProRes 422 is approximately 140Mb/sec and ProResHQ is 220Mb/sec. You would only need the HQ if you were going out to film. In FCP7 Apple added some needed variations to this, for Blu-ray HD, ProRes (LT) which I believe is 100Mb/sec is probably enough. Next, under the Final Cut Pro drop down go to User Preferences/Render Control where you can choose the codec to use to create render files, you can choose Same as Sequence but in your case you want to choose Apple ProRes 422 (HDV, XDCAM HD/EX/HD422 only). This is what gets rendered when you hit command R and are saved in the render files folder with you scratch disk etc.. As long as your frame rates are the same, if you choose either of these two options you shouldn't get any render bars when you place an XDCAM clip into your sequence and the worst that you should get is a green render bar when you place an HDV into the same sequence. In both cases you do not have to convert either format to ProRes. If you want to Master (Export) to ProRes then choose a ProRes Sequence, if you want to Export an XDCAM quicktime then choose that sequence. Keep in mind that the ProRes file will be significantly larger and depending on what your doing you probably can't see the difference. And something more to add to the mix the ProRes will render/Export quicker. Where are you in Australia? I'm from Geelong. Hope this helps.

May 28th, 2010, 05:29 AM	#8
Thanh Nguyen Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 323	Thank you Chuck This is an old thread but good information. I was wonder the same thing how to mix my XHA1s with EX3. Will be shooting 1080 30p (i will set highest setting on the ex3). And i think this pretty much answer my question which i have not test it yet. I have some shooting coming in july and would love to use both of the camera. Just wondering if this would be out of sync for example like for multi cam interview. Will the footages from one out sync other's footages audio?? What if I add a 5dm2 will there be any problem. I have to use mpegclip to transcode h.264 to Proress to edit but will there be a problem in sync again audio and video?? If output to blu-ray which is best option for time saving and space saving but highest quality(quality are priority). What If i want SD to DVD from blu-ray project. Which methood would you recommannd best for Quality. I have been reading that compressor dont do a good job converting HD to SD for DVD. Any suggestion please point me to the right direction. Thank you a bunch