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Old April 1st, 2010, 06:00 PM   #16
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Apple got their company back with the iera. My prediction is that they are going to put some of that profit back into the pro market, after all it is a major % of their image. Apple may be many things, but stupid, I don't think so.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:09 PM   #17
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All this talk and more importantly signs Apple isn't moving forward with Final Cut Studio (DVDSP, iDVD), I am genuinely scared about moving from Express 4 to a used copy of Pro 4 and then buying Studio 3, even though I am doing it for personal stuff (Transit POV's, BC Ferries, YouTube) and learning. Yes I agree with John Foster and "It's the technique, not the software that counts."
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:26 PM   #18
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more importantly signs Apple isn't moving forward with Final Cut Studio
Meaning no disrespect but there AREN'T signs that Apple isn't moving forward with FCS or any other Pro Apps. As someone who has been following Apple and FCP/FCS VERY carefully for 11 or so years, I can tell you Apple is one of the most secretive companies I have ever seen. You really don't know that new hardware is going to drop until BANG there it is on the website. Software is nearly as secretive.

Anyone who says Apple isn't moving forward is SPECULATING and that doesn't help anyone. If the next version of FCS isn't 64 bit, one group will complain. To get 64 bit, it has already been said everything must be recoded from scratch. That can't be an easy task. FCP MUST be stable and if they ARE doing a ground up rewrite, that's a LOT of coding and FAR more troubleshooting and real world testing.

FCS right now is pretty darned complete from an editing standpoint AS LONG AS you realize that FCP isn't designed to edit every codec out there. If you're holding out on buying into the FCP family, do so because the current offerings don't have what YOU need.

FCP is a professional level, highly regarded and STABLE production tool. I don't know what else to say.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:37 PM   #19
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Technique also has a lot to do with having the hardware & software that you are familiar with, comfortable with and are used to dealing with it's inconsistencies.

Apple made a bundle on the iproducts, wouldn't you. I was told that a total rebuild of FCS (which is one of the things we are looking for) would mean typing in millions of lines of code, I don't know if this is true, but I get the idea.

The bottom line is that Apples pro market isn't dead yet. Wait till the next FCS, MP & MBP release before you "worry" too much.

With all the talk I've heard about Apple dropping the pro market, there has not been one single reason stated that suggest that doing so would be in Apples best interest, yet I can think of a lot of reasons that dropping the pro market would be disastrous for them.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:43 PM   #20
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it is a major % of their image.
I think you said it VERY well here. A large percentage of their IMAGE. Not their revenue though. And I do think the consumer side does "bank" on Apple's rep as a boutique choice for the creative professional.

Pro motivates consumer, consumer finances pro.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:55 PM   #21
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Yeah, Think about the % of Apple comps you see in movies compared to PC's.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 08:47 PM   #22
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As has been noted already, Apple's FCS suite is a stable and professional broadcast editing toolset. This latest ridiculous thread, like so many others, seems to be stumbling once again to the edge of the BluRay debate ie around whether or not Apple supports BluRay ... a pet peeve of a many for sure but of absolutely no consequence whatsoever to many others, and I think thats what the former genuinely don't get. Why on earth anyone assumes that if their particular pet peeve is not addressed then the whole Pro Apps division will collapse is quite bizarre.

Trevor ... you are "genuinely scared"? It may be time to get some fresh air.

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Old April 1st, 2010, 10:20 PM   #23
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First, let's separate emotional folly from fact:

There's absolutely nothing to indicate Apple is dropping it's pro-app suite, not even close. The strongest and most genuine critique that can be made is that Apple lags behind it's competitors. But a lack of progress or even competitiveness doesn't equate to product dissolution.

Second, the BR debate and discontent always surfaces because it is in point of fact, one of only 2 features along with Flash that Steve Jobs has publicly denounced and refuses to adopt in the Apple platform. And whether or not it's significant to one person or region doesn't equate to global usage or preferences. BR is simply the most visible and discussed indicator of several things Apple doesn't do. But here's a real-world example of how and why BR get's pushed to the front of complaints of things Apple doesn't do:

Just this week I went to the new Apple Store at the Scottsdale Quarter, which is in a location specifically marketed towards the upscale clientele, people with *lots* of cash to burn. An obviously well-off gentleman walked in with his new 17" inch Macbook Pro he bought just two weeks ago. He specifically purchased it - the most expensive Mac laptop - solely so he and his grandson could share some Blu-Ray movies on a wide-screen while in their first class seats on the way to the UK for a family vacation. He even purchased a dual headset adapter so they could both hear the movie.

This kindly mannered gent was incredulous that his brand-new "state of the art" laptop could not play a BR movie and he wanted the Genius Bar to "fix it, something must be wrong that I can't play my movies...". When it was explained to him that he'd need to first use BootCamp and load Windows AND, on top of that either purchase an external BR player or, pay to have someone install a BR-capable internal drive well... you should have seen his face turn 2 shades of red. His response was twofold: He first said, "If I wanted a Windows machine I would have picked up the Sony I saw at Best Buy..." and, "...if this thing can't play Blu-Ray then give me my money back...".

Now if that's not compelling proof that the "market has spoken", I don't know what is.

Apple isn't dropping FCS or any other of it's pro-apps, the only questions that are valid are:

1. How much longer will Steve Jobs hold his "bag of hurt" stance on BR (or Flash for that matter) and,

2. When will FCS get it's much needed ramp-up to stay competitive?
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Old April 1st, 2010, 10:50 PM   #24
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2. When will FCS get it's much needed ramp-up to stay competitive?
Curious to find out where you think FCS is behind? At the price point, ASSUMING you don't need BD authoring, it's pretty much untouchable in terms of tools, at least as far as editing is concerned. If you're talking Adobe, I've managed 12 years without ever using After Effects or using AE developed material. Photoshop agreed is a great feather in the cap (and I own the increasingly outdated CS3 version because realistically, I don't need PS to do any more for me). If you're talking AVID, prepared to shell out a LOT more cash. And the rest are still playing catch up, at least for the type of work I do - short and long form industrial and broadcast.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 11:24 PM   #25
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I need to ask a really dumb question here (and pardon my ignorance):
For those of you who are currently able to burn BD-Rs, whether on a Mac or PC, what is your rate of failure to play back? Are we at the same point in BD-R playback that we were in DVD-R playback 8 or so years ago (ie. 10% or more of discs didn't work, either due to media OR consumer units not recognizing them)?

Apple was late into the support of DVD burning compared to our more adventurous PC peers (as those of us with some grey hairs may remember) by about 2 years, give or take. Wondering if we are seeing a similar careful foray into a much larger (and UGLIER!) minefield here.

Am I frustrated by the lack of native APPLE support for BD-R? Yes. BUT if I was to start supplying BD-R's to clients who faced a high percentage chance of not being able to view them WHERE THEY EXPECT TO (ie. their set top box and/or game console), I believe I would hold off as a business model. I waited a LONG time for DVD to become a staple of my business model solely because the kinks weren't worked out yet. At this point, while I source 98% of my material in HD, I deliver mostly to SD DVD or HD online files and NOT consumer playback HD. Of course, I deliver exclusively in 16:9 excepting broadcast stuff which is still 4:3 SD in the market I still provide TV commercials for.

I remember when DVD-R's really started to make inroads - clients asked for them and you would go through your spiel about how they may not work in all their DVD players, ESPECIALLY the older ones. They would nod and say "sure, we understand" and then the phone calls would start a week later "so and so can't play back YOUR DVD in their player so it's obviously the DVD. Take it back and make them a new one"

GONG!

Not going there again ANY TIME SOON.

2 cents from a crusty "old" man of 38...

PS. YES, I want BluRay support from Apple but make it WORK, please.
Crusty, young man of 48 speaking here....

I get near zero requests for BluRay and almost all for DVD. Even when making screening copies of HD projects going to the big screen! The BluRay playback dilemma is, in my opinion, worse than DVD ever was. The BluRay player hardware is all over the place. The only BluRays that I've made that work near universally (and that's not for sure) had to be encoded at the lowest bit rate in Encore. Feh. It would be great if playback of recordable BluRay improves but the consumer acceptance of BluRay is not high enough for the manufacturers to standardize the offerings. The PS3 is really the most compatible player I've seen.

And there's still no real-time stand-alone BluRay recorder available in this country for professionals! I would take that over authoring software at this point.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 11:39 PM   #26
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And there's still no real-time stand-alone BluRay recorder available in this country for professionals! I would take that over authoring software at this point.
I'm interested by the "new" JVC offering. I've asked my dealer to report on it once he's had a chance to "beat on it" a bit.

JVC Professional Features page

Thanks for the input, William.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 12:36 AM   #27
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All your points are great. Here are my observations from reading this forum and others, and watching product releases (yes I am a big Mac fan).
  • DVD Studio Pro 4 has been out since 2005 (though can they improve it anymore as far as DVD authoring goes?)
  • Shake. Apple stated publicly that a new product would come out in Mid 2008. Nothing came out in 2008 or 2009
  • iDVD has also been dead for a few years. Very powerful, their still is room for improvement, while not taking anything away from DVDSP
  • Final Cut Express hasn't been updated in almost 2 1/2 years (FCE 3-4 was a 2 year wait as well) though word is an April update
    Edit: ok so FCE 3 - 4 was almost 3 years (not including 3.5 in May 2006 FCE3 - January 2005, FCE4 November 2007).
  • No native AVCHD editing (or playback). Maybe in Final cut Express 5, but nothing in FCS3? I did try clipwrap (trail) and even on my 2006 2.66GHZ Mac Pro 1900XT 3GB RAM is was sluggish in FCE4.
These are some of the things I have read and observed. Alex Lindsay of Pixel Corps also has mentioned will Apple turn DVDSP and iDVD into LP authoring app for the iTunes store, as well as for non store use (delivering a non DVD DVD looking project)? This would be a killer upgrade for iDVD 8 and DVSP5!

I could do my family videos from the 90's and from the HF-S10 my mom got last year and make some amazing containers for all the different videos for her future AppleTV (once it can not choke on HD as allot of people have stated)

Last edited by Trevor Harrison; April 2nd, 2010 at 02:06 AM.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 03:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Robert Lane View Post
Now if that's not compelling proof that the "market has spoken", I don't know what is.

Apple isn't dropping FCS or any other of it's pro-apps, the only questions that are valid are:

1. How much longer will Steve Jobs hold his "bag of hurt" stance on BR (or Flash for that matter) and,

2. When will FCS get it's much needed ramp-up to stay competitive?
I really don't understand all the complaints about BluRay and Flash. Flash is a buggy monster that has become far to dominant on the Internet. Apple publicly denounces it and voila, the whole Internet is moving to HTML 5. Wait for a year and flash for video is almost dead. All major video sites are moving to HTML 5 now... Vimeo, YouTube, Brightcove. First everyone was laughing about the iPad not having flash, and now it is out, every big publisher is building a website to serve rich media content to iPad owners... without flash.

And you can still create BluRay discs on a Mac from the FCP timeline and with Encore CS4. And when enough consumers ask for it, I am sture Steve will provide it.

I also think this discussion belongs in Area 51.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:45 AM   #29
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Sometimes I think I belong in Area 51 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
I'm interested by the "new" JVC offering. I've asked my dealer to report on it once he's had a chance to "beat on it" a bit.

JVC Professional Features page

Thanks for the input, William.
$2550? And no SDI or other standard HD input besides HDV over FireWire? Yeesh! I wonder how it handles files from the SDHC card.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 11:51 AM   #30
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Curious to find out where you think FCS is behind?
Since CS5 hasn't yet been released I'm still under an NDA about specifics but suffice it to say that PP CS4 is *already* far ahead of FCP7 in many areas such as native codec handling, user interface and on the PC-side, hardware IO/acceleration options (see the Matrox add-ons). None of the *cool* stuff about PP has anything to do with BR, just everyday core work across the board that anyone from the one-man-shop to professional post houses can appreciate.

CS5 refines those areas and others and also adds even more compatibility along with some hardware-related core-work offloading (CPU/GPU crunching) that FCP simply can't match - currently. Since the PP beta is being ramped down for near-release fine-tuning I have absolutely no idea how many of the features we testers were working on will make it into the gold release.

On the same machine I was able to use the same assets and create an identical project type (format/codec/output type/quality) in half the time that FCP could. Not just because the software was more efficient but also the UI is more intuitive and easier to navigate. (Admittedly the UI ease of work is a *subjective* viewpoint not a scientific one.)

Adobe has been and is listening to it's users and rolling in the stuff people are asking for. Apple on the other hand for more than 3 years has arrogantly taken it's own path and decided on a "father knows best" approach to it's feature set and product offerings and the "mac children" are growing impatient with the daddy's snail pace of bringin' home the bacon. So to speak.

However, I want to reiterate what I said before and bring to light an aspect about business that nobody seems to have addressed about Apple's progress - or lack thereof - and it's global impact on the marketplace:

No matter what Apple decides to do with regard to updating their product offerings to the pro market, they *cannot* simply decide to dump the FC suite nor any other pro product. Why? Because hundreds of millions of dollars - if not over a billion collectively - has been invested by third party suppliers both in hardware and software across the board and the reach is international, not just in the USA.

If Apple announced today, tomorrow or 4 months from now to the world that the FCS is no longer being produced Apple would be swarmed by a flurry of lawsuits from their product partners for forcing an end to their product line. Keep in mind, there are several companies that exist *solely* to support the FC suite. If FC went away these companies would cease to exist. Apple may be blatantly arrogant in their choices but they're not fiscally stupid and a move like that would bankrupt the company, period.

So Apple may continue to lag behind *all* it's competitors, not just Adobe (it's rumored that Sony is ramping up Vegas to be a more head-to-head competitor to both PP and FCP) but kill off the pro-app offerings? Not anytime in the near future.
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