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Old July 15th, 2006, 12:05 PM   #1
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Has anyone heard about FCP 720P24 support?

When the Apple codec for JVC 24p support will be out. They mentioned June, but now I haven't heard anything about it. Any insiders out there have the latest scoop?
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Old July 15th, 2006, 01:07 PM   #2
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Hi Cal,

There are no insiders here as far as I know, and if there were, they wouldn't be allowed to discuss it anyway.

What I know from NAB in April is that Apple was demoing a working 720P24 version of FCP 5.1. I played with it for 15 minutes on the demo Macbook Pro they had and it seemed to work fine. It certainly didn't crash or do anything weird.
It is a mystery as to why Apple still has not released this update, yet showed it off over 12 weeks ago. When it is finally released we'll announce with a sticky.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 09:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Hi Cal,

There are no insiders here as far as I know, and if there were, they wouldn't be allowed to discuss it anyway.

What I know from NAB in April is that Apple was demoing a working 720P24 version of FCP 5.1.

It is a mystery as to why Apple still has not released this update, yet showed it off over 12 weeks ago.
Apple was NOT demoing a real version of their 24p support. This is the most oft repeated false statement of NAB 2006. They had a hacked version of the 30p codec than could skip the Repeat Flags.

This is not what Apple will do for 24p and 24F. They will do a complete HDV solution -- and I don't expect it soon.

In the meantime, I've been extensively testing Avid Liquid. There are many crazy things about Liquid. But, the fact that I can have a 720p30 Timeline with 720p24, 720p30, 480p60, 1080i60, 480i60 (both 4:3 and 16:9), plus QCIF cellphone video -- is mind blowing. Of course, I can also have a 1080i60 Timeline with 720p24, 720p30, 480p60, 1080i60, 480i60 (both 4:3 and 16:9), plus QCIF cellphone video.

I love the fact that both simple (auto-play) and complex (menu driven) DVDs can be made without leaving the application. The WM9 HD output is fantastic! And, I'm going to try the "make a PAL DVD" from an Region 60 Timeline.

I honestly can't go back to FCP. Apple is years behind the competition! I'm also starting to test EDIUS 4 -- and it too is way ahead of FCP. Frankly, both Avid Xpro and Apple's FCP are falling behind in our multi-format world.

My HDV@Work Newsletter will be covering Liquid and EDIUS for the next 2 months.

My hope is that I can run both on my new MacBook.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 11:17 AM   #4
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How do I get your newsletter Steve?

In reguards to Apple, I think that when they decide to unvail their Mac Pro Systems they will also demo the new full update to Final Cut Studio. I have a feeling it will be part of that.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 12:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
How do I get your newsletter Steve?
Yes. I tried to subscribe on the page I found the newsletter, but the link didn't work for me.

I use Liquid and have used Edius 3 for some projects and have just purchased the JVC camera and I would very much like to read your information on the two programs. I am trying to decide if I should buy Edius or stay with Liquid. I also have PPro 2, mainly because I bought the whole package since I use all the other programs, but I haven't used PPro much.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 12:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Apple was NOT demoing a real version of their 24p support. This is the most oft repeated false statement of NAB 2006.
Ok, then that's semantics, not a false statement. People are just reporting what they saw, a demo of 24p.

At this point I'm starting to be of the belief that yes, Apple is revamping their MPEG support entirely. Along with possibly the entire engine behind FCP. They are indeed getting left behind in the ability to have multiple resolutions/codecs in a timeline. Let's hope.

By the way, I think the #1 repeated false statement of NAB is "What? I didn't do anything last night. I stayed in"
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Old July 16th, 2006, 02:38 PM   #7
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I also am getting the feeling that Apple is revamping the whole studio. Open Timeline hasn't been a big concern for me, but in this day and age with so many codecs (and more on the way), it is likely Apple will also do this. If they stick with having to edit .MOV files, then they need to provide an addition to Cinema Tools so .MOV wrappers can be added (Focus is testing the .MOV 30P Wrapper and should be out VERY soon).

On another note, I have a strong feeling that Shake may make it into the Studio on the next major update. Then again, since its price dropped maybe it won't.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 03:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
they need to provide an addition to Cinema Tools so .MOV wrappers can be added (Focus is testing the .MOV 30P Wrapper and should be out VERY soon).
Sony and Apple are actually showing an FCP plugin for the F-350 that basically does that: it takes the wrapper for the Sony's clips, throws it away and re-wraps the content with the QT wrapper. They claim that the data stream is left untouched (it's actually HDV) and so there's not loss in quality.
They are demoing the system in these day, the dates and places of the roadshow are available at the apple and sony sites.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 04:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Sony and Apple are actually showing an FCP plugin for the F-350 that basically does that: it takes the wrapper for the Sony's clips, throws it away and re-wraps the content with the QT wrapper. They claim that the data stream is left untouched (it's actually HDV) and so there's not loss in quality.
They are demoing the system in these day, the dates and places of the roadshow are available at the apple and sony sites.
The software is available now as a free download from http://xdcamhd.com. There are sample .MXF files around for you to play around with if you want. The problem at the moment is that it does not support the 18 and 35mb VBR modes, nor does it support 30P, just 24P nd 60i.

Mark me down as an unhappy camper at the moment with Apple/Sony. BTW, I attended the 1st event at Dallas on 6/28 and it was basically a re-hash of what they showed at NAB.

-gb-
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Old July 16th, 2006, 04:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Sony and Apple are actually showing an FCP plugin for the F-350 that basically does that
What's maddening for Canon and JVC people is that it's working and released. Half of the deal was Apple releasing an updated HDV codec in the last ProApps update, along with 5.1.1.

In other words, there is now 1080p24 HDV working in FCP. tim mentioned some time ago that the updated HDV codec also allows you now to create 720p24 HDV files.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 04:17 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
What's maddening for Canon and JVC people is that it's working and released. Half of the deal was Apple releasing an updated HDV codec in the last ProApps update, along with 5.1.1.

In other words, there is now 1080p24 HDV working in FCP. tim mentioned some time ago that the updated HDV codec also allows you now to create 720p24 HDV files.
There is a working 1080p24 HDV Codec, but none for 720p24 HDV which is quite weird.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 04:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
There is a working 1080p24 HDV Codec, but none for 720p24 HDV which is quite weird.
I just tested this. You now CAN make a 720p24 HDV file now using MPEGSTREAMCLIP. I just did it. Plays back in FCP just perfectly.

Take a look:
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Has anyone heard about FCP 720P24 support?-720p24.jpg  
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Old July 16th, 2006, 09:35 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Apple was NOT demoing a real version of their 24p support. This is the most oft repeated false statement of NAB 2006.
I have to disagree with your take on this Steve. As far as I can tell, no one here has claimed that it would be released soon, only that we hope it will be released soon. As I said in my original NAB report, there is no ETA.

You may have "insider" information from an Apple exec that you spoke to, and therefore your insight into the situation is clearer than ours. However, let's look at what we know (other than the inside take you just informed us of.)

We were all the JVC press event and booth at NAB (you, me, Nate, & Chris Hurd) and we all witnessed JVC's marketing, using the present tense, not future tense, clearly stating that 720P24 native support was now available in FCP 5.1.

You can visit JVC's website and watch Rodney Charters talk about how HD100 24P footage can now be captured in FCP via firewire. This was quicktime was posted two days before NAB started!

It seems clear to me the JVC marketing department was fully expecting Apple to release the JVC 24P update at NAB, and were very surprised that they only demoed it.

I was also very surprised and upset because Apple generally never previews new features in a pro app without releasing them shortly thereafter. This whole situation is very strange. I have no inside information so I can't speculate on what is actually going on behind closed doors. My conversations were with the Apple rep on the floor demoing the 24P functionality. His take was that the update would be a small downloadable one for FCP 5.1. Yes, he did mention that they "hacked" the 720P30 HDV codec to create the 720P24 codec, but this is irrelevent to the end user.

BTW, the version being demoed at NAB was listed in "About" as "FCP 5.1+ NAB Preview."
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Old July 17th, 2006, 02:00 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
I just tested this. You now CAN make a 720p24 HDV file now using MPEGSTREAMCLIP. I just did it. Plays back in FCP just perfectly.

Take a look:
You are using the 720/30P Codec. Are you then just putting in the desired frame rate and the pulldown is correct?
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Old July 17th, 2006, 02:10 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
You are using the 720/30P Codec. Are you then just putting in the desired frame rate and the pulldown is correct?
Yes, I'm aware :-)

Well, you know there IS no pulldown. I tested it by bringing a HD100 24p m2t into MPEGSTREAMCLIP, and exporting unscaled, 720p30 HDV codec, but specifying the 23.98 framerate. MPEGSTREAMCLIP then ignores the repeat flags in the m2t and ames a frame for frame recompress into a Quicktime HDV file at 23.98. Too bad it's a recompress.

I decided to try this because I knew the HDV codec had just been updated in the last ProApps update, and that there's only ONE codec for both 1080 and 720 HDV, and 1080p24 HDV was a documented update in the new HDV codec.

Er, that and the fact Tim had mentioned it worked :-)
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