The 4 Second problem (HD100+FCP5.0.4)

Jonathan Nelson · December 4th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Do you guys think apple will ever release a fix for this? I have tried all these methods except AIC and I get gaps all over the place.

It makes life a lot harder and also creates a big mess.

I can't wait till there is a solution. I am surprised that this is not a hot issue since the hd100 and fcp are so popular.

Mark Silva · December 4th, 2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

You might see the difference between the $9 JVC and the $20 SONY PHDVM-63DM. I don't care what anybody says, the Sony tapes are just simply better and that's what you are paying for.

Wow the sony tapes are 20 each? (are they white with burgundy lettering?)

The JVC tapes are engineered for the HD series specifically. They should work perfectly fine. I know that I've only had 1 dropout out of 30 pro-hd tapes shot. Prior to that dropouts occured on regular dv tapes but not very often.

I was under the impression that this capture issue had to do with GOP's and occured at the area of a tape where a start/stop happened. I had that issue and it was solved by rolling 10-seconds prior and post to action. This is the way HDCAM has to be shot as well even though it uses dct compression. Its the way the timecode is written i guess.

Chad Terpstra · December 4th, 2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Silva

I was under the impression that this capture issue had to do with GOP's and occured at the area of a tape where a start/stop happened. I had that issue and it was solved by rolling 10-seconds prior and post to action. This is the way HDCAM has to be shot as well even though it uses dct compression. Its the way the timecode is written i guess.

I wish it was only at the start/stops, but it happens at what seems to be random places where there may or may not be a minor dropout. But given the fact that the Sony HDV cameras are able to capture whole tapes without gaps even at the start/stops, I'd really hope Apple upgrades support for JVC to be on par with this level. - Just as if it were regular DV.

Jiri Bakala · December 4th, 2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Silva

Wow the sony tapes are 20 each? (are they white with burgundy lettering?)

Yes, I think so. It's the PHDVM-63DM model. They are around $23 Canadian here in BC. I tell you, when I used premium Panasonic 'mastering' tapes (around $13) I had dropouts all over. Now even on a second pass Sony it's fine.

Mark Silva · December 4th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Terpstra

I wish it was only at the start/stops, but it happens at what seems to be random places where there may or may not be a minor dropout. But given the fact that the Sony HDV cameras are able to capture whole tapes without gaps even at the start/stops, I'd really hope Apple upgrades support for JVC to be on par with this level. - Just as if it were regular DV.

ok i understand.

I have not had this problem with my hd100 at all on fcp 5.04
It would only have the gaps at a start/stop point if there was no pre-roll.

Chad Terpstra · December 4th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

Yes, I think so. It's the PHDVM-63DM model. They are around $23 Canadian here in BC. I tell you, when I used premium Panasonic 'mastering' tapes (around $13) I had dropouts all over. Now even on a second pass Sony it's fine.

I've heard from a few people on these boards that the P-Master tapes aren't very good for the HD-100. I myself have had a very bad experience with regular Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ tapes that nearly ruined a wedding. Since sticking with the JVC's I don't have any problems in SD and HD it's just this capture issue. But if over time I see DO's coming up I will take your experience with the Sony HD variety into consideration.

Alex Bowles · December 5th, 2006, 01:49 AM

Hi all,

I wanted to follow up with the results from some tests I've just run.

For what it's worth, I've been using the p-1394 setting instead of p-Tape (per JVC) and have never used anything but Sony DVM63HD tapes (the expensive ones in the burgundy and cream shells.)

Short story is that the camera did not do well. There was a marginal difference between the REC and REGEN modes (13 dropouts, or 52 seconds vs. 14 over a 25 min import.) Most of these were at stop/start points, so they're simply irritating, as opposed to dangerous, but there were still enough random dropouts in both modes for me to develop a fundamental distrust of this camera when used with FCP. And yes, I did disable the scene detection feature in FCP, so the issue really is one of compatability with, and support from Apple.

Importing using AIC was totally useless. Not only did it not solve the problem, it stripped all the time-code, making the media unmanageable as well as incomplete. Using 'capture now' with instead of batching clips was no better in terms of dropouts, but at least I could keep my time-code.

I'm hoping that an upgrade from FCP 5 to 5.1 will solve the problem. It will also give me access to 24p HDV, which I've been waiting on for over a year, but I'm not holding my breath for any of this. Steve Mullen pointed out that this seems to be an FCP-specific problem, and they've been VERY slow to roll out HDV 24p support. (Did someone at JVC piss off Steve Jobs?)

Right now, the best application for this camera seems to be in a direct-to-disk situation, where it's best-of-class sensor still gives it an edge, but otherwise, I'd be very wary of relying on the tape transport + FCP for anything that involved a client deliverable.

Hope this helps.

Bill Ravens · December 5th, 2006, 08:05 AM

sorry you guys with FCP are having so many dropouts. i've never expereinced a single dropout or compatibility problem with my pC and Vegas7/Cineform

Alex Bowles · December 5th, 2006, 10:08 AM

Yeah, this really seems to be an Apple support issue, not a JVC issue per se. Does anyone know if the problem persists in FCP 5.1?

Alex Bowles · December 5th, 2006, 07:15 PM

Okay, so I've been in contact with JVC, and they tell me that the solution is a two part deal.

First, you need to have the 'A' firmware upgrade installed. Second, you need to be running FCP 5.1.

They also confirmed that the problem is related to some rather unique ways that Apple handled the transport stream in 5.0, which explains why the folks on Windows based NLE's have been spared this issue.

The one potential gotcha is that if you're working with media that was recorded on a pre-A version of the HD-100, then then problem will persist, even in FCP 5.1, and even if you're capturing from a camera with the firmware update in place (the problem is actually embedded in the media.)

I've just ordered my FCP cross-grade discs ($49 to get from v.5.0 for PowerPC to v.5.1 Universal, which works on the Intel chips as well) so I'll follow up when I've had a chance to put the new software through its paces.

In the meantime, it looks like Apple's $49 cross-grade offer expires on 12/20. I noticed that, if you upgrade the components in FCP Studio individually, the total cost is $650...

Hope this helps.

A

Jonathan Nelson · December 5th, 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Bowles

Okay, so I've been in contact with JVC, and they tell me that the solution is a two part deal.

First, you need to have the 'A' firmware upgrade installed. Second, you need to be running FCP 5.1.

They also confirmed that the problem is related to some rather unique ways that Apple handled the transport stream in 5.0, which explains why the folks on Windows based NLE's have been spared this issue.

The one potential gotcha is that if you're working with media that was recorded on a pre-A version of the HD-100, then then problem will persist, even in FCP 5.1, and even if you're capturing from a camera with the firmware update in place (the problem is actually embedded in the media.)

I've just ordered my FCP cross-grade discs ($49 to get from v.5.0 for PowerPC to v.5.1 Universal, which works on the Intel chips as well) so I'll follow up when I've had a chance to put the new software through its paces.

In the meantime, it looks like Apple's $49 cross-grade offer expires on 12/20. I noticed that, if you upgrade the components in FCP Studio individually, the total cost is $650...

Hope this helps.

A

Well, both my hd100s are "A" versions and they still break up on capture in fcp 5.1.

In fact, they break up like nothing else. Seven second gaps all over the place.

Something needs to be fixed.

Eric Carle · December 6th, 2006, 01:02 PM

I have a HD 100U "A" version and I am running Final Cut 5.1.2 and am also having 4-6 sec dropouts when shooting HDV. I am capturing using the CU-VH1US-P so it can't be the Camera. I have even recaptrued footage and have the breaks in the same spots. Hope this is solved soon.

Alex Bowles · December 6th, 2006, 03:41 PM

I've followed up with JVC again, and they've got plenty of evidence to suggest that the problem is not an across-the-board issue, but rests with particular cameras. I was asked to send it in for service, which should still be covered under the warrantee.

Sigh.

Alex Bowles · December 6th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Carle

I am capturing using the CU-VH1US-P so it can't be the Camera. I have even recaptured footage and have the breaks in the same spots.

JVC did mention that the breakups are caused by something embedded in the tape itself, which is why tapes recorded on a pre-A version will continue to to create drop-outs even when the equipment playing them has been upgraded.

Apparently, the way to solve this is to import the tape into a Windows based NLE, then re-export to to the camera. This strips whatever it is that's triggering the issue, allowing material on the new tape to import properly. I haven't got a Windows based NLE myself, so I haven't been able to test. Can anyone confirm how well this works?

A

Jonathan Nelson · December 6th, 2006, 09:50 PM

Is there a piece of software out there that we could use to capture hdv instead of fcp?

December 5th, 2006, 01:49 AM	#22
Alex Bowles Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 49	Follow up Hi all, I wanted to follow up with the results from some tests I've just run. For what it's worth, I've been using the p-1394 setting instead of p-Tape (per JVC) and have never used anything but Sony DVM63HD tapes (the expensive ones in the burgundy and cream shells.) Short story is that the camera did not do well. There was a marginal difference between the REC and REGEN modes (13 dropouts, or 52 seconds vs. 14 over a 25 min import.) Most of these were at stop/start points, so they're simply irritating, as opposed to dangerous, but there were still enough random dropouts in both modes for me to develop a fundamental distrust of this camera when used with FCP. And yes, I did disable the scene detection feature in FCP, so the issue really is one of compatability with, and support from Apple. Importing using AIC was totally useless. Not only did it not solve the problem, it stripped all the time-code, making the media unmanageable as well as incomplete. Using 'capture now' with instead of batching clips was no better in terms of dropouts, but at least I could keep my time-code. I'm hoping that an upgrade from FCP 5 to 5.1 will solve the problem. It will also give me access to 24p HDV, which I've been waiting on for over a year, but I'm not holding my breath for any of this. Steve Mullen pointed out that this seems to be an FCP-specific problem, and they've been VERY slow to roll out HDV 24p support. (Did someone at JVC piss off Steve Jobs?) Right now, the best application for this camera seems to be in a direct-to-disk situation, where it's best-of-class sensor still gives it an edge, but otherwise, I'd be very wary of relying on the tape transport + FCP for anything that involved a client deliverable. Hope this helps.

December 5th, 2006, 07:15 PM	#25
Alex Bowles Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 49	Problem Solved (I hope) Okay, so I've been in contact with JVC, and they tell me that the solution is a two part deal. First, you need to have the 'A' firmware upgrade installed. Second, you need to be running FCP 5.1. They also confirmed that the problem is related to some rather unique ways that Apple handled the transport stream in 5.0, which explains why the folks on Windows based NLE's have been spared this issue. The one potential gotcha is that if you're working with media that was recorded on a pre-A version of the HD-100, then then problem will persist, even in FCP 5.1, and even if you're capturing from a camera with the firmware update in place (the problem is actually embedded in the media.) I've just ordered my FCP cross-grade discs ($49 to get from v.5.0 for PowerPC to v.5.1 Universal, which works on the Intel chips as well) so I'll follow up when I've had a chance to put the new software through its paces. In the meantime, it looks like Apple's $49 cross-grade offer expires on 12/20. I noticed that, if you upgrade the components in FCP Studio individually, the total cost is $650... Hope this helps. A

December 6th, 2006, 01:02 PM	#27
Eric Carle Tourist Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 1	Same problem I have a HD 100U "A" version and I am running Final Cut 5.1.2 and am also having 4-6 sec dropouts when shooting HDV. I am capturing using the CU-VH1US-P so it can't be the Camera. I have even recaptrued footage and have the breaks in the same spots. Hope this is solved soon.

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December 4th, 2006, 09:25 AM	#16
Jonathan Nelson Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Kingman Arizona Posts: 298	Do you guys think apple will ever release a fix for this? I have tried all these methods except AIC and I get gaps all over the place. It makes life a lot harder and also creates a big mess. I can't wait till there is a solution. I am surprised that this is not a hot issue since the hd100 and fcp are so popular.

December 5th, 2006, 08:05 AM	#23
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	sorry you guys with FCP are having so many dropouts. i've never expereinced a single dropout or compatibility problem with my pC and Vegas7/Cineform

December 5th, 2006, 10:08 AM	#24
Alex Bowles Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 49	Yeah, this really seems to be an Apple support issue, not a JVC issue per se. Does anyone know if the problem persists in FCP 5.1?

December 6th, 2006, 03:41 PM	#28
Alex Bowles Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 49	I've followed up with JVC again, and they've got plenty of evidence to suggest that the problem is not an across-the-board issue, but rests with particular cameras. I was asked to send it in for service, which should still be covered under the warrantee. Sigh.

December 6th, 2006, 09:50 PM	#30
Jonathan Nelson Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Kingman Arizona Posts: 298	Is there a piece of software out there that we could use to capture hdv instead of fcp?