The 4 Second problem (HD100+FCP5.0.4)
 

Hi all,

I've been having a chronic problem with 4 Second gaps in the footage I import from my HD-100 into FCP.

Basically, it's impossible to capture an intact clip from the camera. There are all these mysterious dropouts that cause the imported scenes to subdivide into shorter clips *with 4 second gaps between them!!!* This happens on virtually every clip I try to work with.

The problem is tied to the footage, as reimporting the same clip will cause the problem in virtually the exact same place time and time again. About 50% of the time, I can get material from these trouble spots to import into FCP, which is scary.

However, the tapes themselves playback just fine in the camera. You don't know there's a MASSIVE DROPOUT until you're capturing, and your clip (say, 5 min) gets subdivide anywhere from 5 to 20 times, with these deadly four second gaps between each one.

I understand this has something to do with a scene detection feature (which I've disabled in FCP) and am wondering if there's something I should be doing in Camera as well?

A

have you set the menu preference in the camera from p-Tape to P-1394? This definitely affects the time lag when writing to disk instead of tape.

Hi Alex.

There is something else you can try with the camera. You didn't say what frame rate you were importing but, as you are in NYC, I'm guessing it's HDV 720p30.

In the sticky thread at the top of this forum (about FCP 5.1.2) there has been a LOT of discussion about gaps in the footage when capturing. This has been a chronic problem with HDV 720p25, but I've now seen 3 or 4 reports (here and in the FCP forum) of similar problems with 720p30.

What has solved the "gaps" problem in 720p25 is to set the TC GENE switch to REC (rather than REGEN) when shooting your footage. Then capture with Capture Now (Capture Clip might also work, depending on your firmware).

I'm not "happy" having to shoot with REC. I'd much rather always shoot with REGEN. But it has totally eliminated the gaps when capturing.

I suspect that this would also work with 30p footage.

I had this problem shooting 30p. My solution was to import using the Apple Intermediary Codec (AIC).

Joe

What about 24p? I just recorded a play in HDV24p with the TC in "REC" mode and still have random gaps in the captured file(s) resulting in split files in spite of no visible dropout. I had about 6 gaps in 40 minutes and each one means a devastating 4 seconds lost. Then when it reached the end of the tape, Final Cut just stopped, gave an error and lost everything from the last dropout to the end with no trace of the footage in Capture Scratch or anywhere. It’s like I’m running version 3 or something…

Bill, I can't find the setting for "P-Tape" or "P-1394." Is this something for recording direct to disk?

I guess I'll have to import with DVHSCap and transcode to AIC. What a pain. I bought the $9 JVC tapes to avoid dropouts and now I have tiny unnoticeable dropouts that cause FCP to break the capture... Does anyone have better experience with other tape brands? I don't see the difference between the $3 and $9 JVCs.

I really hope Apple addresses this issue in the next release.

You might see the difference between the $9 JVC and the $20 SONY PHDVM-63DM. I don't care what anybody says, the Sony tapes are just simply better and that's what you are paying for.

That's disappointing news (concerning 24p). I haven't tried native 24p capture yet, but even if it had worked in REC mode it wouldn't have done me any good. I've got about 26 tapes in 720p24 (on a feature project) which were all recorded in REGEN. I'd already edited it into a 2 hour rough cut in AIC before FCP 5.1.2 was released and have been contemplating recapturing in native HDV 720p24. Obviously the theoretical best quality would be to capture in native HDV 720p24 and later export the final sequence as Uncompressed. (Even though AIC quality is very, very good.)

This recapturing would, in itself, be onerous enough - i.e. because you lose timecode when transcoding to AIC, so I don't have the option of recapturing using a batch capture (where the only effort involved is to change tapes every hour or less). Fortunately we slated everything with scene number, shot number and take number - so it can be done (eventually). But if FCP is also going to break each take into several clips with 4-7 second gaps, that would make the recapturing idea unviable.

So I have 2 hopes:
1/ That Apple bring out a new FCP update which fixes the problem for capturing HDV 720p (at all frame rates). It seems to me that they need to disable the way that FCP "perceives" the HDV 720p footage coming over the FireWire (and which has been making FCP "think" that one clip is actually several different clips) and program it to simply capture by timecode settings alone. That is, you log your in and out points, then FCP is completely guided by those timecodes and NOTHING ELSE.

2/ I've been eagerly awaiting Tim Dashwood's report on the workflow he's been using in editing a current feature project in 720p24. Tim earlier said that he was expecting to post this around the end of November (and I hope he makes it a "sticky"). He might have some useful tips for successfully capturing 720p24 natively.

alex...

i have an hd110. on page 2 of the "OTHERS" menu, there's an item called "Backspace" that allows this selection I referenced. It's possible the older hd100 menu doesn't have this selection option....P-Tape/P-1394. It may have been included on the formware update. Perhas Carl Hicks can tell you.

Got it. Yes, it's on the original HD100 as well. I just didn't know where to look. Mine is set to P-1394. Does this make any difference when not using a direct-to-disk recording system?

Jiri, are you saying that you are able to record and capture a whole tape continuously with no dropouts or capture breaks? In 24p or 30p? If so, I might consider switching back to Sony, but without concrete evidence I don't see the point. By the way, you’d expect tapes made by the same company as a camera to work better together. I guess I was stepping out too far on an assumption there. In any case this camera is extremely picky when it comes to tape brands so I’d like to be sure of a good brand before I make the switch. Thanks for offering up your experience.

I've been using the Sony HDV tapes and feel it really does make a difference. A $9 tape doesn't feel right for serious work in HD.

Also wonder, do you have these DO caused gaps it you capture whole tape using Scene Detect?

Since upgrading to 5.1.2 AND working with 1080i -- I've had tons of FCP capture errors using Batch Capture. I can't tell, because I haven't tried 720p with 5.1.2, whether its the new software or 1080i. But, FCP simply claims every few clips it can't get data.

Same tapes capture fine in Vegas, EDIUS, and Liquid. With a MBP 2 -- I've simply stopped using FCP for editing.

I'm also fairly certain Liquid will have no problem with 720p50 and 720p60. The only thing it's missing is inverse puldpwn and pulldown for working with Sony V1. But, FCP doesn't support these either. Plus all the tools for HD DVD and BD are running under XP.

As a matter of interest, Alex, what tape where you actually using?

There seem to be just so many different thoughts on what could be causing the difficulties.

Rob

I believe this has to do with which gets the prioity, either the Firewire out (Firestore) or the Tape internal when recording.

according to a previous post by Carl Hicks, the JVC rep, setting P-Tape when you're feeding a 1394 device, will result in a data loss of around 4 secs.

I just want to confirm that what David says above concerning break free capture in 25P is right. As long as I stick to rec and capture now I can seem to capture without any issues at all. Chaning tapes from JVC to panasonic and then back to JVC again seemed to make no difference at all so I question whether it is a tape issue. To my infinite relief my good luck in this regard is holding which is very timely as I am in the middle of a project is holding.

Rob

In some small way I can share in your relief. I have no use for 25p, but if I know it works for that, then there's a light at the end of the NLE tunnel in that the Final Cut team will get it together and fix this problem accross all the framerates of this format (720p24 & 30). Hopefully sooner than later...

Do you guys think apple will ever release a fix for this? I have tried all these methods except AIC and I get gaps all over the place.

It makes life a lot harder and also creates a big mess.

I can't wait till there is a solution. I am surprised that this is not a hot issue since the hd100 and fcp are so popular.

Wow the sony tapes are 20 each? (are they white with burgundy lettering?)

The JVC tapes are engineered for the HD series specifically. They should work perfectly fine. I know that I've only had 1 dropout out of 30 pro-hd tapes shot. Prior to that dropouts occured on regular dv tapes but not very often.


I was under the impression that this capture issue had to do with GOP's and occured at the area of a tape where a start/stop happened. I had that issue and it was solved by rolling 10-seconds prior and post to action. This is the way HDCAM has to be shot as well even though it uses dct compression. Its the way the timecode is written i guess.

I wish it was only at the start/stops, but it happens at what seems to be random places where there may or may not be a minor dropout. But given the fact that the Sony HDV cameras are able to capture whole tapes without gaps even at the start/stops, I'd really hope Apple upgrades support for JVC to be on par with this level. - Just as if it were regular DV.

Yes, I think so. It's the PHDVM-63DM model. They are around $23 Canadian here in BC. I tell you, when I used premium Panasonic 'mastering' tapes (around $13) I had dropouts all over. Now even on a second pass Sony it's fine.

ok i understand.

I have not had this problem with my hd100 at all on fcp 5.04
It would only have the gaps at a start/stop point if there was no pre-roll.

I've heard from a few people on these boards that the P-Master tapes aren't very good for the HD-100. I myself have had a very bad experience with regular Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ tapes that nearly ruined a wedding. Since sticking with the JVC's I don't have any problems in SD and HD it's just this capture issue. But if over time I see DO's coming up I will take your experience with the Sony HD variety into consideration.

Follow up
 

Hi all,

I wanted to follow up with the results from some tests I've just run.

For what it's worth, I've been using the p-1394 setting instead of p-Tape (per JVC) and have never used anything but Sony DVM63HD tapes (the expensive ones in the burgundy and cream shells.)

Short story is that the camera did not do well. There was a marginal difference between the REC and REGEN modes (13 dropouts, or 52 seconds vs. 14 over a 25 min import.) Most of these were at stop/start points, so they're simply irritating, as opposed to dangerous, but there were still enough random dropouts in both modes for me to develop a fundamental distrust of this camera when used with FCP. And yes, I did disable the scene detection feature in FCP, so the issue really is one of compatability with, and support from Apple.

Importing using AIC was totally useless. Not only did it not solve the problem, it stripped all the time-code, making the media unmanageable as well as incomplete. Using 'capture now' with instead of batching clips was no better in terms of dropouts, but at least I could keep my time-code.

I'm hoping that an upgrade from FCP 5 to 5.1 will solve the problem. It will also give me access to 24p HDV, which I've been waiting on for over a year, but I'm not holding my breath for any of this. Steve Mullen pointed out that this seems to be an FCP-specific problem, and they've been VERY slow to roll out HDV 24p support. (Did someone at JVC piss off Steve Jobs?)

Right now, the best application for this camera seems to be in a direct-to-disk situation, where it's best-of-class sensor still gives it an edge, but otherwise, I'd be very wary of relying on the tape transport + FCP for anything that involved a client deliverable.

Hope this helps.

sorry you guys with FCP are having so many dropouts. i've never expereinced a single dropout or compatibility problem with my pC and Vegas7/Cineform

Yeah, this really seems to be an Apple support issue, not a JVC issue per se. Does anyone know if the problem persists in FCP 5.1?

Problem Solved (I hope)
 

Okay, so I've been in contact with JVC, and they tell me that the solution is a two part deal.

First, you need to have the 'A' firmware upgrade installed. Second, you need to be running FCP 5.1.

They also confirmed that the problem is related to some rather unique ways that Apple handled the transport stream in 5.0, which explains why the folks on Windows based NLE's have been spared this issue.

The one potential gotcha is that if you're working with media that was recorded on a pre-A version of the HD-100, then then problem will persist, even in FCP 5.1, and even if you're capturing from a camera with the firmware update in place (the problem is actually embedded in the media.)

I've just ordered my FCP cross-grade discs ($49 to get from v.5.0 for PowerPC to v.5.1 Universal, which works on the Intel chips as well) so I'll follow up when I've had a chance to put the new software through its paces.

In the meantime, it looks like Apple's $49 cross-grade offer expires on 12/20. I noticed that, if you upgrade the components in FCP Studio individually, the total cost is $650...

Hope this helps.

A

Well, both my hd100s are "A" versions and they still break up on capture in fcp 5.1.

In fact, they break up like nothing else. Seven second gaps all over the place.

Something needs to be fixed.

Same problem
 

I have a HD 100U "A" version and I am running Final Cut 5.1.2 and am also having 4-6 sec dropouts when shooting HDV. I am capturing using the CU-VH1US-P so it can't be the Camera. I have even recaptrued footage and have the breaks in the same spots. Hope this is solved soon.

I've followed up with JVC again, and they've got plenty of evidence to suggest that the problem is not an across-the-board issue, but rests with particular cameras. I was asked to send it in for service, which should still be covered under the warrantee.

Sigh.

JVC did mention that the breakups are caused by something embedded in the tape itself, which is why tapes recorded on a pre-A version will continue to to create drop-outs even when the equipment playing them has been upgraded.

Apparently, the way to solve this is to import the tape into a Windows based NLE, then re-export to to the camera. This strips whatever it is that's triggering the issue, allowing material on the new tape to import properly. I haven't got a Windows based NLE myself, so I haven't been able to test. Can anyone confirm how well this works?

A

Is there a piece of software out there that we could use to capture hdv instead of fcp?

I rented an HD100u a few months back to evaluate for work and captured 720p30 no problems to FCP 5.1. I was using $2 TDK tapes from Costco because that's what I had at the moment.

In fact, I liked it so much I've been checking these boards because I'm thinking of getting one personally.

I don't think this is a problem for everyone?

I highly recommend to everyone who owns FCP to do this $49 update before it is too late.
http://www.apple.com/universal/crossgrade/

Still Problems 24p
 

So...I am working with JVC110U and Final Cut 5.1.2 and the latest BR-HD50. I can't capture using the AIC or anything else. Is this just not fixable right now? Is it fixable with making the .m2t conversions...how do I do that? Can I get it dubbed to another tape in 30p or something and then capture that?

My JVC guy says its not the camera.

I am soooo stressed. Please help. Even if it is that you will say that I have to sit tight until Apple comes out with a new update.

Thanks,
Sharon

I've been having the same problem, Its really crappy that Apple has not really addressed this issue. It's like they give a little, but not quite enough to make it work great. Very Disappointing considering apple has been a good easy interface to work with. Has anyone heard anything new on this?

I wish there was third party software that could capture the footage. I would happily pay money to not have to deal with this issue anymore.

I don't see apple ever fixing it but I hope I am wrong. This type of software update sounds like it would be tricky to pull off and maybe worth waiting to fix it in 6.0.

I couldnt tell you how happy I would be if apple fixed this problem for 5.1.

24p?
 

I have a new (bought in October) 110 and am having the same problems. The intermediate codec is tolerable for 30p footage, but what about 24p?

Any recomendations would be great.
BTW I shot 20 hours on Timecode "REC" and have had the same problem on every tape.

This issues makes me wish I had stayed with Adobe.

Hi

I too am having this problem. With 25p. I am in th middle of an important project and need some kind of work around.

Has anyone been intouch with Apple about this?

Trevor

Hi Trevor.

This thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82624

might help answer your question, plus it contains a couple of workarounds.

Also, if your problem is purely losing the early seconds of each take (and is otherwise capturing your clips fully with no arbitrary breaks in the middle) you can go into your capturing preferences in FCP and shorten the pre-roll.

Trevor and Cecil,
I just recently posted this on another thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....2&postcount=20

This is valid just for FCP 5.1.2!

Thanks for the preroll tip.

I wish there was a way besides aic to capture just one clip and not have it split up into tons of clips.

I wonder what would happen if you captured with free run tc on the tapes? I will have to try that, even if the tc doesn't make sense. If it worked, that would certainly be better then the aic workflow.

I doubt it would work. I will try it and see what happens.