Problem capturing 720p25 as AIC in FCP5.1.2 at DVinfo.net

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Old December 27th, 2006, 10:19 PM   #1
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Problem capturing 720p25 as AIC in FCP5.1.2

Hey can someone help with this i have just updated my fcp to the latest ver and i want to have a play with 720p25, i set up the cam as per hdv 25p, in fcp use easy setup for hdv25p, aic codec,cap ok, the files that are captured have jumped to 50fps, so it is all in fast motion, and audio is out, so how do i keep it at 25fps.

Rob.

By the way i am in australia, i have also see a new tv show called "danderous"
look like it or some of it is shot with the jvc hd101. airs on fox 8 16th Jan.
Produced by southern star,
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Old December 28th, 2006, 12:00 AM   #2
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Hi Robert,

I imagine your problem is that you are using the AIC capture utility to capture 720P25. As far as I know the AIC utility (functionally the same as capturing in iMovieHD) is only compatible with 720P30, and cannot remove the duplicate frames from the 720P50 stream.

FCP5.1.2 added native support for 720P25, so there is no need for the intermediate codec.
You should select the "HDV 720p25" Easy setup and use the Log and Capture tool to capture native 720P25. You will be able to log and batch capture, and the added advantage is that the source TC will also be captured with the movie file, which is something AIC seems to ignore.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 06:27 PM   #3
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thanks tim

Your the man that knows his stuff.
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Old December 31st, 2006, 01:46 AM   #4
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Hi Robert!

I am shooting with the JVC GY HD111E and using FCP512. Lots of outstanding probs with 25P. It just won't work. What happens is that the computer captures random clips of anywhere between 10 seconds to several minutes, as is evidenced by discussions elsewhere in this forum. And yes all ther proper setting were executed. Talk to Noel Oakes at JVC Professional in Sydney who is championing for the problem to be fixed quickly. My workaround is to downconvert everything to SD using the component output of the deck/camera and then running it through an analogue to digital converter before inputting into the big Mac! A big thanks to Noel for his ready support.

According to information gleaned from Apple Australia, I was told Apple is aware of the problem with Final Cut Pro and HDV1 25P which is used by JVC proHD. Apple says it is working with JVC to provide a fix sometime in the near future.

If 720 25P can be used with other non-linear editing systems, then surely this has been a very big oversight by the big Apple!

The JVC proHD cameras are all that can be expected from this class of equipment and more. I'm prepared to see the experts implement the fix as I know the final results will be worth it.
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Old December 31st, 2006, 07:06 PM   #5
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Current state of play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Nowak
Talk to Noel Oakes at JVC Professional in Sydney who is championing for the problem to be fixed quickly. My workaround is to downconvert everything to SD using the component output of the deck/camera and then running it through an analogue to digital converter before inputting into the big Mac! A big thanks to Noel for his ready support.
Hi Len.
Welcome to this board and Happy New Year to you and all the other board members! (It's midday on New Year's Day as I write this in Melbourne.)

It's good to hear that Noel (who gives such great support to users of this camera in Australia) is pushing Apple to fix this problem.

In the meantime, it's worth knowing that there are a couple of other workarounds for getting your 720p25 footage into FCP. I am a bit concerned about possible quality loss with the capturing method you mentioned because your image recorded to tape has already been through an initial A/D (analogue to digital) conversion plus MPEG-2 compression before you even play it out through the component outputs and do the second A/D conversion. Also, the following workarounds allow you to work in and export/archive in 720p25 rather than SD (and both allow you to capture via FireWire).

FIRST WORKAROUND
a/ The DVHSCap-MPEGSTREAMCLIP workaround (for tapes that you have already recorded and can't capture properly into FCP). You capture the .m2t (MPEG-2 Transport Stream) files with DVHSCap and then convert the .m2t files into Quicktime movies (which FCP will then recognize) using MPEGSTREAMCLIP. You can do these conversions into any codec you choose, such as Uncompressed, 720p25 Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) or even, if you wish, an SD codec (such as DVCPRO50 for example).

The detailed workflow which follows is for 720p25 AIC (AIC is supposed to be visually lossless):

CAPTURE:
Capture the .m2t files from the camera or deck using DVHSCap. It is part of the “FireWire SDK 20” package and can be downloaded from this page:
http://developer.apple.com/sdk/#FireWireX

CONVERSION:
1. Launch MPEG Streamclip (available from this link: http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-mac.html ) and open the .m2t file you wish to convert.
2. Fix the timecode breaks. (press “Apple-F”, then click "Proceed").
3. Select your In ("i") and Out ("o") points, or omit this step if you wish to convert the entire clip.
4. Select “Export to Quicktime” (Apple-E).
5. Scroll through the “Compression” codecs and select "Apple Intermediate Codec".
6. Drag the “Quality” slider to 100%.
7. Deselect both “Interlaced Scaling” and “Reinterlace Chroma”.
8. Make sure the “Frame Size” is “1280 X 720 (16:9)”. There should also be a message "No scaling will be performed" when you have this right.
9. “Frame Rate” - type in "25"
10. Click “Make Movie”.
11. Type in the file name, select the destination and click "Save".

EDIT IN FINAL CUT PRO
1. Launch Final Cut Pro.
2. Open "Easy Setup", select "HDV - 720p30" and click "Setup".
3. Make a new sequence (Apple-N).
4. Double-click the new sequence to open it, then select "Sequence - Settings" (or press Apple-0).
5. In "Editing Timebase" select "25".
6. Under "Compressor" select "Apple Intermediate Codec".
7. Click "Advanced..." and under "Preset" select "HDV 720p" then click "OK".
8. Then click "OK" on the "Sequence Settings" window.
9. Now import your converted AIC files and drag them into your sequence and (if done correctly) there should be no need to render.


SECOND WORKAROUND
b) The "Set the TC GENE switch to REC before recording your tapes, then capture and edit away in native HDV 720p25" workaround (which can only be used for non-REGEN recorded tapes, of course).

Here is the workflow (the use of "REC" was first discovered and posted by Rob Castiglione):

1/ Set TC GENE switch to REC.
2/ Allow at least 10 seconds pre-roll before the start of each take.
3/ At least 5 seconds post-roll at the end.
4/ Open FCP and set the "Easy Setup" to "HDV - 720p25".
5/ Capture (using Capture Now) and edit away in native HDV 720p25.

The advantage of this one (over AIC) is that it allows you to work natively in FCP RIGHT NOW (even before Apple updates FCP to fully correct these capturing problems).

Drawbacks to this method:
1/ When using "REC" you have to manually reset your timecode (if you want to keep continuous timecode for any future batch capturing) every time you rewind your tape to check your last take on the monitor. I like to immediately check an important take to ensure there are no visual tape dropouts on the image. That's why I would prefer Apple to simply fix this so I can go back to using REGEN.

2/ For me, this method only works 75% of the time. Perhaps it has something to do with the individual quality of each tape(?). I use the recommended JVC Pro HD tapes (M-DV63PROHD). The first two times (two different tapes), it captured everything perfectly. On the third one, it split nearly every take (back to those original capturing problems!). However, that third tape gave at least one visual dropout when capturing (which made FCP immediately break the clip). When I rewound the tape and recaptured that portion, the dropout was gone! So perhaps the tape was a bit faulty (or a bit of dust on the heads or something). The fourth project (tape) captured extremely well again and restored my faith in this method.

The biggest advantage of this method is that it gives the theoretical highest quality (being native HDV 720p25) from your tapes. Even if your final export is to SD, I personally think you should work in 720p until the final export of your sequence. (This also gives you the chance to archive your work [Quicktime] in 720p - I prefer 720p AIC as an archiving codec.) If your delivery, for example, is to DVD (SD) you can edit your sequence in native HDV 720p25 and export using Compressor to directly make your .m2v and .ac3 files for the DVD. It gives superb quality results.

Sorry to make this such a long post, but I thought it best to give you the "full state of play", as I currently understand it, for working in HDV 720p25 with FCP 5.1.2.
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Old January 2nd, 2007, 03:24 AM   #6
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Capturing native HDV is great until it comes to rendering out for SD DVD, etc, on my Dual 2.0 G5 with 4gb ram. Even viewing some previews will not work without rendering the timeline. HDV is a processor intensive format apparently.

So after reading an article on converting to DVCPRO HD, I haven't looked back. I capture using the HDV 720p25 'easy setup' in FCP 5.1.2, and then use compressor to convert all captured clips to DVCPRO HD before editing. It takes a little time, but the final rendering times after editing are greatly reduced, and I rarely have to render the timeline to view previews.

I hope to buy a AJA Kona LH to capture DVCPRO HD in realtime to cut out some legwork.

Andrew
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Old March 5th, 2007, 12:11 PM   #7
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Final Cut 5.1.4

This "maintenance release" hit the street a few days ago. The good news is previous problems with 25p capture have all seemed to be corrected. Just to prove it is idiot proof, I've simply used the easy set-up option, and everything works like it should. The problem is it has taken Apple 6 months to make it happen.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 05:31 PM   #8
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Hmm, a flurry of reports suggesting this may have been fixed though I'm not holding my breath yet.
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Old March 18th, 2007, 05:18 AM   #9
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Problem re-surfaces

It "appeared" FCP 5.1.4 had solved the capture issues until the Mac OS X 10.8.9 was recently released. Now with this installed, my system has reverted to the same capture problems previously experienced. Under 10.8.8 it appeared to work problem free. Without any forethought as to potential problems, I went ahead and installed the upgrade to the OS X, but with negaive results. To go back to the previous version would mean a re-build - time consuming and not very productive under the circumstances.

So I've taken the plunge and adopted the David Knaggs solution. And my congratulations to you David for an excellent workaround. I've done some serious work in the past few days, and your processes worked seemlessly. I throughly recommend this "solution" to anyone shooting 720 25P with the JVC GY-HD 100 series camera. It works. And despite the politics surrounding claims by Apple stating support or otherwise for 720 25P, the Knaggs method provides an excellent solution until the software experts realise the big shortfall in Final Cut Pro.

Prooblem now being faced is how to print the work to video. Any ideas as the computer does not seem to recognise the BR-HD50 deck.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 01:41 AM   #10
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Thanks Len. While it's always nice to have my tyres pumped up, I should point out that Tim Dashwood did all the initial research into Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) and its use in 24p and 30p workflows. Up until then, I think I was using DVCPRO HD in my DVHSCap-MPEGSTREAMCLIP workflow. I simply adapted it (AIC workflow) for my specific use in 720p25 and I am always happy to share ALL of the different 720p25 workflows that I have been using successfully over the last 20 months. Perhaps the AIC one should be titled "Dashwood method specifically adapted for 25p".

Sorry to hear about the capturing results after updating your OS X. I think that NAB is only about 4 weeks away and a release of FCP 6 (plus, perhaps, new versions of the other FCS applications) could be on the cards. So things could change again (for the better!) with native capture with FCP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Nowak View Post
Problem now being faced is how to print the work to video. Any ideas as the computer does not seem to recognise the BR-HD50 deck.
As far as printing to video using the deck is concerned (I don't have a deck), Tim is the resident expert on that and deck questions are normally posted and answered over on the camera forum (GY-HD100/110/200/250). So if you make a post there, I'm sure it will be quickly answered.



And one final note concerning archiving options (I've mentioned archiving options earlier in this thread and so feel it appropriate to bring this up now).

Tim gave me some advice a few weeks ago (quoted below) and I've belatedly realized that it may give us the PERFECT archiving option. Here is what Tim said:

"The hardest part right now, if you edited your 720P24 material natively in FCP5.1.2, is exporting it natively without re-encoding. FCP disassembles the m2t stream and converts the audio into 48Khz. From that point on it is in the quicktime wrapper and it needs to be re-assembled into a mpeg2 TS to play on any other format without a generation loss.

The only way I can think of to maintain camera original quality and go back to m2t is to do a "print to tape" and then recapture from that tape using DVHSCAP or HDVxDV."

I followed Tim's advice and when I saw the results projected on a screen (using the very latest JVC 1920 X 1080 projector) it looked wonderful and I could not tell the difference between it and camera-originated .m2t images.

Of course, the acid-test would be side-by-side frame comparisons on a large HD monitor(s) and, if anyone has the chance to test this and report on it, it would be most welcome.

I've earlier recommended archiving native HDV 720p timelines in AIC Quicktime on a hard drive as my current preferred option (because exporting to Quicktime in HDV 720p codec would, I believe, apply a new MPEG-2 compression which is most undesirable).

However, in light of Tim's suggestion, archiving would be as "simple" as taking your natively captured and edited HDV 720p timeline, printing to tape (which seems to bypass the undesired extra MPEG-2 compression), then capturing the tape back natively through FCP.

That gives you a project that is archived on BOTH tape and hard drive (as a native Quicktime) - all at the theoretical highest quality.

The only bug might be in the step of recapturing from the tape (if FCP decides to break it into smaller clips), but as that tape had just been recorded directly from FCP, it should be more likely to be "FCP-compatible".
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:19 AM   #11
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Thanks for the kind words David.

IF you just want to archive a sequence as one file on a hard drive, you can export a self-contained quicktime with "current" settings. There will be no video recompression on frames or GOPs that were not adjusted in any way (effects, transitions, etc.) You will have a Quicktime file in HDV codec that can be re-imported into FCP and printed back to tape at any time in the future.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Nowak View Post
Problem now being faced is how to print the work to video. Any ideas as the computer does not seem to recognise the BR-HD50 deck.
I haven't tried it with printing to tape with 720P25. I did it the other day with 720P24, BR-HD50 firmware 1.06, and FCP 5.1.4. It all seemed to work well.
The deck was in HDV mode and DV was set for input. That's pretty much it.
You may want to try to "refresh devices" in the view menu.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 07:15 AM   #13
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Sound sync issues

Thanks Guys!

The deck works perfectly after the appropriate settings were executed.

Now unfotunately another problem has emerged. Despite testing a range of settings, the audio looses sync after the conversion in MPEG Streamclip. With short clips of a few minutes, there appears to be no problem. But if converting a clip of a longer duration , there is a noticeable audio slip of up to 2 seconds. Sound sync after capture with DVHSCap is perfect. Any clues?
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Nowak View Post
Now unfotunately another problem has emerged. Despite testing a range of settings, the audio looses sync after the conversion in MPEG Streamclip. With short clips of a few minutes, there appears to be no problem. But if converting a clip of a longer duration , there is a noticeable audio slip of up to 2 seconds. Sound sync after capture with DVHSCap is perfect. Any clues?
Hmmm ...

Assuming that you've already applied "Fix Timecode Breaks" and set the Frame Rate box to 25 in MPEG Streamclip, the first possibility might be that the audio is drifting because you might be converting a clip that has a number of timecode breaks in it (even though they have already been "fixed"). Every time you start and stop recording, it can act like a "timecode break" because the GOP has been broken (even though your actual timecode readings are continuous) and perhaps the accumulation of broken GOPs are causing the audio drift. So, if you set in and out points (in the MPEG Streamclip timeline) between each instance of starting and stopping recording and then convert each (which will mean a number of smaller clips), perhaps that will do the trick.

But this advice is useless if you are referring to long, continuously recorded clips. In which case you may have to "hand-synch" the audio in your FCP timeline. I once used a paid application called HDVxDV to convert .m2t files shot in 720p24 for another project and had constant problems with audio drift. It was an extremely onerous task to hand-synch all of the clips (lining it all up with when the actors opened their mouths). So my fingers are crossed that my first bit of advice will save you from the "horrors" of hand-synching.
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