Web delivery- HDV to flash...never having done this 'properly' before.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

I basically embed the video you posted here which is what you should be doing. I did not actually modify the file or anything. When I suggested modifying the file that was to enhance playback speed for the viewers. I use the JW FLV player that is linked above. Tell your web guy to try and use that.

Try this one: Final Kung Fu S.T.P Encoded

I rencoded the file a bit but to the same resolution which is actually 640*480 which is 4:3 new file size is about 5.6MB. Most of your video is indeed wide screen but when you do the zoom effect on the punch you do utilize the 4:3

The file is optimized for progressive download with the ATOM at the front of the file. If you like it, feel free to use it on your site.

Direct file link is: http://www.simplethoughtproductions....NFILE-h264.mp4 (right click save as)

The link you posted before this one Josh looked lovely, although there was a moments wait for it to download. These latest clips do not seem to be working as well. The speed of the video and audio is a little erratic for some reason and the 4:3 format doesn't work so well. It's a little confusing but the footage was shot 16:9 but 2.35:1 bars were added as an effect.
I've just read that Adobe is not currently geared up for H.264 which might explain why the 'instant' download (Atom/Progressive download) isn't working so well. Personally I'd rather keep the quality (as per the original link you posted) and have a short wait.

Thanks Josh.

[Josh Chesarek]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

The link you posted before this one Josh looked lovely, although there was a moments wait for it to download. These latest clips do not seem to be working as well. The speed of the video and audio is a little erratic for some reason and the 4:3 format doesn't work so well. It's a little confusing but the footage was shot 16:9 but 2.35:1 bars were added as an effect.
I've just read that Adobe is not currently geared up for H.264 which might explain why the 'instant' download (Atom/Progressive download) isn't working so well. Personally I'd rather keep the quality (as per the original link you posted) and have a short wait.

Thanks Josh.

Moving the Atom actually wont effect quality. The quality change was because ran the video through my own quick encoder which uses a bitrate of about 800K which is much lower than what you were using. You can move it on the version you like and not have to wait. I have a feeling part of the wait you experienced might have had something to do with the fact my server is in Texas and you are over the pond. The file I downloaded that you posted here was reported as 640*480 by VLC which is a 4:3 resolution.

Either way the original file you posted loked very nice so you should have a good starting point with your webmaster now :)

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

Moving the Atom actually wont effect quality. The quality change was because ran the video through my own quick encoder which uses a bitrate of about 800K which is much lower than what you were using. You can move it on the version you like and not have to wait. I have a feeling part of the wait you experienced might have had something to do with the fact my server is in Texas and you are over the pond. The file I downloaded that you posted here was reported as 640*480 by VLC which is a 4:3 resolution.

Either way the original file you posted loked very nice so you should have a good starting point with your webmaster now :)

My web guy sent me this link:

Adobe - Developer Center : Exploring Flash Player support for high-definition H.264 video and AAC audio

which has this titbit of info (I'll admit it means little to me):

Important considerations when streaming H.264 content

One important thing about playing an H.264 video file as progressive download is that the moov atom needs to be located at the beginning of the file, or else the entire file will have to be downloaded before it begins playing. The moov atom is a part of the file that holds index information for the whole file. Unfortunately, tools such as Adobe Premiere and After Effects place this information at the end of the file, but Adobe is working to fix this in a future update to the CS3 video production tools. This isn't an issue for streaming the H.264 video files, however, so Flash Media Server users can breathe easy.

Two open-source solutions to adjusting the moov atom to allow progressive streaming are:

* QTIndexSwapper (Adobe AIR app by Renaun Erickson)
* qt-faststart.c (command-line app by Mike Melanson)

which may or may not explain why we were getting such bad quality from my original file H.264 file. I'm at a loss to explain how we're still having problems though if you've posted a really good quality clip from my file. I'm going to drop a couple of MP4 & QT exports from FCP onto our own server today and see if that makes any difference...but I'm best sitting down and going through this is in person...because I'm totally baffled now.
Huge thanks for your help Josh.

[Josh Chesarek]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

My web guy sent me this link:

Adobe - Developer Center : Exploring Flash Player support for high-definition H.264 video and AAC audio

which has this titbit of info (I'll admit it means little to me):



which may or may not explain why we were getting such bad quality from my original file H.264 file. I'm at a loss to explain how we're still having problems though if you've posted a really good quality clip from my file. I'm going to drop a couple of MP4 & QT exports from FCP onto our own server today and see if that makes any difference...but I'm best sitting down and going through this is in person...because I'm totally baffled now.
Huge thanks for your help Josh.

Well I am flying in to Manchester on the 20th of December :-D I have low consultation fees ;) The Atom will not effect quality. I am fairly sure it was just the method of displaying the file that caused the lower quality. It will only determine if your video starts playing in a few seconds vs. a minute or two.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

Well I am flying in to Manchester on the 20th of December :-D I have low consultation fees ;) The Atom will not effect quality. I am fairly sure it was just the method of displaying the file that caused the lower quality. It will only determine if your video starts playing in a few seconds vs. a minute or two.

Do you accept 'beer tokens'? :) Do you have friends/family over here?!

Thanks Josh - I'll be seeing the guy in a day or two so we'll sit through the options and I'll show him your file etc.
Cheers.

[Josh Chesarek]

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Do you accept 'beer tokens'? :) Do you have friends/family over here?!

Thanks Josh - I'll be seeing the guy in a day or two so we'll sit through the options and I'll show him your file etc.
Cheers.

Oh yeah do I ever! My better half is from the UK so we are visiting the UK and then to Germany. I grew up with good Beer and man do I miss it.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

Oh yeah do I ever! My better half is from the UK so we are visiting the UK and then to Germany. I grew up with good Beer and man do I miss it.

Ah I see. You might just catch the end of the European Christmas markets (the largest in Europe) - plenty of fine ale in this city :)

I've been asked to provide other versions of this file - straight QT exports and not H.264 (due to that Adobe developer link I posted). The closest I can get to that 8.8mb H.264 file is nearly 60mb (and it's not quite as sharp - other file sizes have reached 160mb). I cannot think of any other web codec using FCP/compressor. We simply have to get the original file to work. I'll see him tomorrow so hopefully work this out!!

Cheers.

[Josh Chesarek]

Not sure why they do not want the h.264. If you want the most people to see it the answer is Flash which means you are either using .flv file or you are using h264 Apple has moved to using h264 for all of their web videos.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

Not sure why they do not want the h.264. If you want the most people to see it the answer is Flash which means you are either using .flv file or you are using h264 Apple has moved to using h264 for all of their web videos.

I'm not sure Josh - I'll speak about it tomorrow hopefully - it's not my area so I can't explain why this isn't working (might a possible explanation be that the Adobe CS or Flash Player software are old versions?) .
The problem was when my H.264 file degraded on the website viewing (which you saw and offered a really good quality version via web - so there is a way!...it's working out how we can do it this end - I'll have more info in the next couple of days).
Should I, in the meantime, try and export the file as a .FLV? I've tried a few more versions (MP4, although isn't H.264 a version of MP4?) to export but none come close to the quality (and small file size) as the H.254 codec (for the record I'd exported as QT 7 LAN for downloading).
Interesting insight to this link in the video content chain this weekend - I've learned a little bit more.
Thanks Josh.

[Josh Chesarek]

.mp4 is a container for the video and audio streams.

h264 is a codec that encodes the Video stream inside of the container.

Confusing I know.

in the .mp4 there are a few codecs one of which is h264

A cool thing the advanced flash players you can use on your site (JW FLV and FLowplayer) is that you can have them check if the users have the right version to play the high quality .mp4 if not, it will fall back to a .flv you provide.

When trying to get to the most viewers you do want to provide as many options as possible. If this is my goal I usually provide a WMV file for the windows people, a .mp4 for the mac people and a .flv for everyone in between.

On my own website where I get to say what goes and not a client I use h264 files and ask the user to upgrade to version 9.0.15 or higher but that is me.

So try the flv. If you can use the on2VP6 encoder that is the best, if not the sorenson spark does fine but it will require a higher bitrate than the h264 file to keep the same quality.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

.mp4 is a container for the video and audio streams.

h264 is a codec that encodes the Video stream inside of the container.

Confusing I know.

in the .mp4 there are a few codecs one of which is h264

A cool thing the advanced flash players you can use on your site (JW FLV and FLowplayer) is that you can have them check if the users have the right version to play the high quality .mp4 if not, it will fall back to a .flv you provide.

When trying to get to the most viewers you do want to provide as many options as possible. If this is my goal I usually provide a WMV file for the windows people, a .mp4 for the mac people and a .flv for everyone in between.

On my own website where I get to say what goes and not a client I use h264 files and ask the user to upgrade to version 9.0.15 or higher but that is me.

So try the flv. If you can use the on2VP6 encoder that is the best, if not the sorenson spark does fine but it will require a higher bitrate than the h264 file to keep the same quality.

Hi Josh - I believe the on2VP6 encoder is indeed being used. If I can figure it out I will also create a .flv file directly from FCP/Compressor (although h.264 appears to be the only web option, unless I use MP4 and up the bit rate somewhat).
I guess we may have to wait for Adobe Flash Player to fully incorporate h.264 material...we'll persevere!
Thanks josh.

[Josh Chesarek]

Well. I am still kind of confused.

h.264 codec is fully supported as long as you follow their guidlines. The .mp4 container is an acceptable container to hold the h.264 video for flash. Your file you posted does follow guidelines close enough that it can be used. I think what may have made it look bad was the way it was put into the website and the player the website used. Keep in mind that every flash "player" is programmed differently. They all utilize the same programming language but they are not all created equal. One possible option is that the embed code used did not use the proper resolution which caused the player to try and scall your video. If it was not set to properly scale the video the result could be video that looks terrible.

Dont give up, we will figure this out!

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Josh Chesarek

Well. I am still kind of confused.

h.264 codec is fully supported as long as you follow their guidlines. The .mp4 container is an acceptable container to hold the h.264 video for flash. Your file you posted does follow guidelines close enough that it can be used. I think what may have made it look bad was the way it was put into the website and the player the website used. Keep in mind that every flash "player" is programmed differently. They all utilize the same programming language but they are not all created equal. One possible option is that the embed code used did not use the proper resolution which caused the player to try and scall your video. If it was not set to properly scale the video the result could be video that looks terrible.

Dont give up, we will figure this out!

Indeed we shall Josh! Funny thing is, many reels I see on websites all have a fair amount of degradation/pixillation (although not quite youtube quality) but as has been proven with my file via your site, it can look splendid, even at such low file sizes (8mb).
We have to put up another reel at the end of the week, so we'd like to try and figure this out by then (this will be a larger file as it clocks in at over 3 mins).
Really appreciate your help Josh.

[Ken Diewert]

Go to On2 Technologies - Making Video Possible, from Handhelds to HD and look at the FlixPro encoder. I've been happily using it for 18 months to encode .AVI to .flv and .swf. An SWF file can have a player built into it. I'm sure you must also be able to encode .mov as well (I'm just not at my regular office now) An FLV file needs a player on the site from which it is playing. I've got a bunch of videos playing from my site. Many of them 'progressively download' to other sites from my server. I can encode as high as 1K ( I can go higher, but increased file size doesn't really pay off).

You can check out my site if you want at Cutlass Film Video Production - Vancouver Island - Home to take a look at some. I've got both FLV and SWF playing on my home page. The page and built in flash player are both black, so on the flv files you have to click the play icon.

Just don't burn up to much of my bandwidth.

Good Luck

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

Go to On2 Technologies - Making Video Possible, from Handhelds to HD and look at the FlixPro encoder. I've been happily using it for 18 months to encode .AVI to .flv and .swf. An SWF file can have a player built into it. I'm sure you must also be able to encode .mov as well (I'm just not at my regular office now) An FLV file needs a player on the site from which it is playing. I've got a bunch of videos playing from my site. Many of them 'progressively download' to other sites from my server. I can encode as high as 1K ( I can go higher, but increased file size doesn't really pay off).

You can check out my site if you want at Cutlass Film Video Production - Vancouver Island - Home to take a look at some. I've got both FLV and SWF playing on my home page. The page and built in flash player are both black, so on the flv files you have to click the play icon.

Just don't burn up to much of my bandwidth.

Good Luck

Thanks Ken - I'll check out your links. I'm pretty sure on2 is being used so .mov's should be ok. It doesn't help that the vids we're posting up have a heck of a lot movement in them (being martial arts footage) - talking heads wouldn't be so bad!

Cheers.