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Old September 12th, 2002, 09:30 AM   #1
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XL-1>Mac>FCP>Cleaner>Web

Okay...I'll admit it. I haven't been able to get those razor sharp, smooth compressions through Cleaner that I've seen others get. I've tried the Wizards, and various adjustments on my own.

So how about we all chip in our two cents and come up with a standard version of Cleaner settings for optimal output?
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Old December 1st, 2002, 11:23 PM   #2
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Experiment

John,

experiment with different compression schemes (with Cleaner)......some variables when changed will not allow cross-platform playback (regardless if it's a mov file).......my suggestion is to use a browser and try to open the file directly- if it plays, chances are it will play on the internet as well......

the biggest variable i've found in compression is the "spatial quality" setting- in my opinion Sorenson 3 does an incredible job with low figures.....for long tiny videos- try WMV.......

have fun.......

I've played with various schemes and have posted them on my site- feel free to check 'em out and let me know what you think......

http://stevenunez.com/
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Old December 2nd, 2002, 01:36 AM   #3
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Hi John,

Could you please provide some more info on what version of Cleaner you are using, in addition to what type of encodes you are trying to create? CD-ROM? Web Streaming? What format? QuickTime? WMP? Real?

Looking forward to your response,

- don
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Old December 2nd, 2002, 02:20 AM   #4
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Don,

I'm using Cleaner 5...the only program I still use in classic. I've been trying to update to Cleaner 6, but so far I've had trouble finding anyone that wants to send it overseas without hassle. I'll find a dealer soon, I'm sure...and based on what I've read about 6, it'll be a welcome update.

I've been compressing everything for the web...and always for Quicktime. I tried doing a Windows Media compression with Cleaner 5 and it came out just awful.

What I did was start with the "Quicktime Progressive" wizard, then tweak the settings a bit. Here's what I have for each tab:

Tracks
Video - Process & Display High Quality
Audio - Process
MPEG - Process

Image
Crop - manual
Image size - 320X240 (4:3 Constrain)
Display size - Normal
Deinterlace - Auto
Adaptaptive Noise Reduce - Mild
All others - unchecked

Adjust
Contrast - +5
All others - unchecked

Encode
Codec - Sorenson Video Compression
Bit depth - Millions of colors
Frame rate - 15 fps
Keyframes - every 15 frames
Video Data Rate - Basic, 1440.0 kbits/sec
Total Data Rate - 1.7 Mbits/s

Audio
Codec - IMA 4:1
Sample rate - 44.100 kHz
Depth - 16-bit
Channels - Stereo

Begin/End
High-Quality Frames - Basic, First frame & Last frame
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Old December 3rd, 2002, 08:15 AM   #5
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compression experiences

I have been using Cleaner 5 and Sorenson Video Pro 3 for about a year now. I have also been using ZygoVideo Pro. I seem to have a different experience every time I compress. Sometimes Zygo works best, sometimes Sorenson, depending upon the type of FCP file I have.

I do mostly little mini docs on Vermont tourist themes. My current download sizes are around 7 to 8 MB for 3-4 minutes. I find that my progressive output is quite acceptable to those with broadband. I am not trying to get modem users because things turn to so much crap at that speed that it is not worth it. Plus my audience is well off vacationers in New Jersey, Connecticut and New York, most of whom have broadband.

I would love to work with some of you in sharing and co-operating on compression techniques and also on techniques for shooting and editing for the web.

If you want to see my work, go to http://www.scenesofvermont.com and look for the movie links. I am always interested in people's reaction to download performance and general camera and editing work. My latest effort is on Woodstock's annual Wassail celebration. I had a hell of time with this, trying to compress. I kept getting file sizes of 14 MB. No wonder really...I have a section of the Messiah in part of the movie and I wanted to keep the sound top notch! I eventually got it down to 7.8 MB and it is quite respectable in my opinion. The way I did this was to reduce the frames per sec rate to about 8 or 10 and use 2 pass VBR. I have had disastrous results with 2-pass sometimes but on this occasion it seems to work well. There is still some jerkiness in the movie but I figure i should accept this in the interests of getting good sound and reasonably good colour. Anyone want to make some comments.
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Old December 3rd, 2002, 08:42 AM   #6
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Palmer-Benson,

I watched your videos and enjoyed them. Great job on the compression...the file sizes are reasonable considering the good image and sound quality. I like "A Taste of Syrup" best. Makes me want to hop on a plane and go to Vermont right now.

To give you some constructive feedback, I had a problem with the red and blue titles on the Woodstock's annual Wassail celebration video. Perhaps it's just my monitor (Apple Cinema Display)...but I had a hard time seeing them. Also, in my opinion there's too much pavement showing in the first 2/3 of the video. I wanted to get closer and see things up close. Same with the closing sing-along shot. It would be nice to see some close-ups.

Really...that's the only video that I felt I should comment on. The rest...I enjoyed as they are. (the swim astounded me...can't imagine that much time in the water!)

Let me say now that you've got me beaten hands down on compression. I recently made a 6.5 minute film, 320X240, and opted for the highest quality...and unfortunately wound up with 85mb! I'm waiting for Cleaner 6 to arrive before I try recompressing because Cleaner 5 kept stalling on me. Took me about 20 tries just to make one compression...so I didn't feel like trying again to compress further.

Thanks for sharing your films with us.

P.S. Don...where'd you go?
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Old December 3rd, 2002, 08:59 AM   #7
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compression

Thanks John for your comments. You may have looked at the wrong Wassail movie. Did you download the one with Handel's Messaih at the end? I should take the other one off!

Regarding your compression efforts. I downloaded Cleaner 6 from the Discreet Web site. They are in Montreal. You should be able to get it over the web and you'll just pay the upgrade fee if you are registered for Cleaner 5.

You should try ZygoVideo Pro....its $99 and well worth it and it works in Cleaner 5 and 6.

Judging from what you say, I would think your 6 minute movie could be compressed to around 20 MB or slightly less. You could also split it up into two parts and link the two.

One thing I have learned about compression is to always, always shoot on a tripod and in frame mode. I use FCP 3 and drag an FCP file right into Cleaner. It usually takes me around six goes to get the best compression.

I had a terrible time with the swimming piece because the water ripples all the time! Sorenson 2 pass VBR turned the movie into ugly blotches! But all this disappeared when a used ZygoVideo pro. Then, when I did my latest Wassail movie, I found the case reversed. Sorenson worked best. I have no idea why!

Tim
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Old December 3rd, 2002, 09:20 AM   #8
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I watched all of the videos except for one titled "A web movie with music that tours the Quechee - Woodstock area." It wouldn't play. A window popped up saying I needed the "On2" component for Quicktime, so I clicked to download it. After the download, QT gave me an error saying that "On2" was damaged.

Thanks for the tip on ZygoVideo Pro. I'll check it out. I wanted to download the upgrade for Cleaner 6 off the web, but they don't allow downloads to a Japanese IP address. Amazon.com doesn't have the upgrade listed...just the full version...which is unfortunate since that would be the easiest way to order. The other dealers I've contacted are asking me to do a song and dance to have it sent out of the country. I'll probably go with BH Photo and do their "international verification" procedures since it entails less hassle than Zotz or others are asking me to do.

Did you use a Tiffen enhancing filter and polarizer on the fall foilage video?
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Old December 3rd, 2002, 11:24 AM   #9
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filter

HI;
No I didn't use a filter at all for any of my stuff. Perhaps I should!
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Old December 11th, 2002, 04:18 PM   #10
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Web Videos online

I don't know if I'm achieveing optimal results myself-

but here are a few FCP3 videos shot with an XL-1S, compressed with Cleaner 5...

if anyone thinks the filesizes should be smaller for the given quality chime in with your settings.......

http://stevenunez.com/video/pages/videos.html
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Old December 11th, 2002, 05:01 PM   #11
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Steve,

Cool Pocket Bike clips! I also really liked the Redtail Hawk catch the mouse. Were you using any filters on the clips with the hawks?
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Old December 11th, 2002, 09:22 PM   #12
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No filter on the hawk clips (on the camera that is)...I think I deinterlaced the footage but that's about it.


Thanks for the comments.
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