Portable hard disk drive?
 

I read in another forum that there is a portable hdd that attaches to a belt or even the cam. Sounds like the ultimate solution. Experience anyone?

Dan
http://www.fotofilmvideo.com

I know the things you're talking about. I think they are sweet, just veeeeeery pricey. Think about the wear and tear on your tape transport you'll avoid!

There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120

They are expensive, but not outrageous. Would be interested to hear impressions from any users. They have gotten some pretty good reviews. On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions?

To me a 1000 $ gadget that works wouldn't be too expensive. Your camera would last last forever and think of the tapes you don't buy! And capturing is just a matter of deleting!
Whooheeh!!

Dan
http://www.fotofilmvideo.com

Well I just got a copy of the new DV magazine and they review two different devices. It seems that they both have their shortcomings however. The Sony DSR-DU1 has a 40GB drive for $2,350 (not including batteries) and was tested with a PD-150 and PDX-10. A significant limitation is that you need to be rolling tape for it to work. Sort of defeats your head wear argument and also doesn't give you the advantage of being able to capture several hours of continuous video.

The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive.

Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives.

Sounds like we need to wait a few years more... sounds like the way to go though.

A lot of people had high hopes for a small and affordable DV recorder when MCE Tech first started hyping the CitiDisk. From a shooter's standpoint, the fact that it does not adhere to the full AVC command set and cannot be controlled by a DV camera via IEEE1394 is a serious limitation. That you have to manually press REC start/ stop on the CitiDisk everytime you want to record (and that the only indication that you are recording is a simple LED) considerably hinders the viability of the CitiDisk as a solution for shooting in ENG/ EFP or any chaotic shooting situation.

In fairness, MCE Tech made a nice attempt to deliver a DV recorder that addressed what many shooters were pleading for: small size and small price. Perhaps there will be a revised, re-engineered second version which will correct the control limitations inherent in the present design.

"Video iPod" anybody? Now, that would be cool!

- don

Archive to tape?
 

<<<-- Dan, I don't think you'd really save money on tapes, would you? You'll want to archive all your video somehow, and the only practical way at this point would be to send it back to tape, unless you plan to buy lots of firewire drives. -->>>

Wouldn't burning to DVD be the best way to archive? I'm completely new to all this and just picked up a Canon 200MC. DVD burners are quite affordable these days and media is getting to be afforadable as well. What do you think? Davidk

I'll admit that I haven't worked with DVD's, but it seems to me that if you're shooting DV you would want to keep your source material in its original format and not covert to MPEG. Aside from any quality issues arising from re-compression, it would be a pain to have to convert back to DV later in order to edit. I believe an hour of DV fills up around 15 GB, so tapes still seem to be the most practical storage medium.

For those of you that work with DVD's... using a fast machine, how long would it take to convert an hour of DV and burn it onto a disk? How long to go back to tape in the other direction? What sort of quality would be lost in the resulting format change DV > MPEG > DV?

I think Citidisk has this correct
 

Manually stopping and starting the CitiDisk is great for me.

Those Catholic weddings always have me sweating at the end when I have 8 minutes of tape left.

Correct me if I am wrong but CitiDisk continues to record even when the tape is being changed or is stopped. Sounds great to me.

Editing would be awesome. Forget rewinding all the tapes and then capturing one by one. Connect the Citidisk and do a batch capture of 6 hours (or more) of DV. Instead of the usual checking on progress, watching till the end, stopping, changing tapes and repeat 4 more times. Hell yeah, one batch capture, for the entire ceremony !!

So let me see if I have this correct. I can record to tape and harddisk simultaneously. Don't have to worry about missing a shot between changing tapes. When I am done, I automatically have back up tapes. Capturing is painless (long but painless) and easy. Wake up, whiners !

I think CitiDisk has this correct, I only hope it "works" and isn't "buggy".

I also believe an Apple DVpod would also be sweet.

Mark

<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : There are several of them, such as the FireStore by Videonics: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/...ID=F5918901120

... On a somewhat related topic, I would be very interested in a battery powered firewire drive that's suitable for video editing with my PowerBook. All the small battery powered drives I've seen are slower mechanisms. Any suggestions? -->>>

These are not battery powered, but powered by the Firewire. Ken Tanaka put me onto this unit, and I am very happy with it. About the size of a pack of cigarettes, and available in sizes up to 80 GB (I use a 40).

http://www.wiebetech.com/index2.html

Back to the original thread, I don't think DVD as archival storage is such a good idea. As Boyd has pointed out, you'll be compressing and converting a lot.

No matter how much editing I do, I have the peace of mind of knowing that my original source data is safe on the tape I shot it on.

<<<--

The other unit they tested was the CitiDisk DV which cost around $650 for the 40GB version, including builtin batteries. This unit can't be controlled by the camera and has to be manually started and stopped. It also saves its files in a format called "Raw DV" which requires rendering when you attach it to your computer, sort of defeating the purpose of using a hard drive.

-->>>

since bruce wrote that AV/C commands have been implemented, so it starts and stop with your cam rec but...

http://www.shining.com/products/totalsolution/citidisk_dv/

my question is does the xl1 give AV/c commands over firewire, i think i heard that it did not...?

also does the xl1 give power off the 1394 plug?

I do not know whether or not the XL1/s sends commands via Firewire, but I can say that it cannot power a drive. It has only a 4-pin Firewire connection, which does not carry power.

About archiving....

One does not have to recompress and store the material as mpeg on the dvd, one could just import the material as uncompressed .avi or any other non-lossy format and then burn it to dvd. Since the DVD-format holds quite a lot af data this could be an alternative for us that doesn't really agree to the fact that tape is a safe medium...

Sam Eklund,
Stockholm, Sweden

Unfortunately, today's general DVD's with a 4.7Gb capacity will only hold about 20 minutes of raw DV footage.

What about the Firestore 1?
 

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.htm

This is the one that seems to float my boat. There are some review links at this site as well.
If you tape while you download to HDD, you can save the tapes as archive, and edit from HD, still saving head wear and tear. Even if you archive once more the finished product onto DV, you're still saving 1/3 life (not having to xfer the first time). If customer is getting VHS and DVD though, I wonder if a DVD archived copy of final product would be sufficient, for future copies if required. Now your saving 2/3 of youtr head life. If you're really bold, skip the tape altogether. The question still remains for me though, can the vx2000 "record" - output to firewire HD - without a tape running.
Another fellow I've spoken to thought that saving an hour tape and an hour download time was not justification for $1000 gadget, though. Not a bad point for the budget's sake. But then, how many tapes in a year?

we looked tha that model it is way to big, plus you need a hard drive...hmmm CitiDisk DV would be great if it had used the msdv codec

The new FireStore FS-3 is much smaller, can mount directly to a camcorder for full portability, and includes a removeable internal hard drive. Expect a full review on DV Info Net soon.

Chris,

I saw the Fs3, but its is a bit bigger then citi's unit, however it is not out yet. Although it has been a while since they announced have they shipped them yet, if so whats the price?

external hd
 

I have tested to put movieclips on an external hard drive, and when I import them to Premiere the external disc doesn't seems to handle that appr. Maybe the external disc is to slow for moviefiles?

Hard drive speed
 

Do you know the speed of the drive you tried? A 7200 RPM, 2MB cache firewire and/or USB2 drive is commonly available now. I wonder if those specs would be sufficient.

If I understand the Hard Drive market correctly the initial investment is about a $1K output. This includes one 60 or 80 gig drive.

The drives are standard notebook drives and can be bought, again, if I am not mistaken for about $75 to 90 bucks per drive and perhaps negotiated if one buys bulk.

I am very tempted to buy one.... Of course the only company I have spoken to and briefly saw product from was Firestore.

I need to do more research...

It is definitely the way to go.

Archiving to DVD
 

To bypass compression issues, simply burn the file and using DVD with Nero or you favorite DVD writing device. Do not make them into DVD Video, but DVD-/+RW as data. Capture at 4GB at a time and burn them to DVD as data files. This may lead to quite a bit of DVD's though.

one solution
 

I don't see this one working on event videography, but if you're doing a short film and have time to set up, why not use a laptop and capture the footage straight to the hard drive?

Lugging a laptop around with all the other equipment may be somewhat of a pain, but you'd have the ability to bypass recording to tape.

I have done this before in Adobe Premiere on my desktop. (I don't have a laptop.)

Hrm...What is the maximum length a firewire cable can be? I have seen 15 foot cables for sale.

What do you guys think?


,Frank

You can get firewire repeaters to extend the length. Expensive though.

Is the user able to switch the drives in these portable drives? (Talking about the CitiDisk DV)

I was considering getting a mini-itx motherboard with firewire on it as well as a 10amp hour 12 volt battery, a 120gb notebook drive, and a small composite video monitor and buildin a PC about the size and look of an old Star Trek tricorder to use as a portable capture device, but it sound like this is a solution where someone has already done all of the work. But I would want to be able to trade out drives without having to purchase the controller mechanism for each and every drive.

if you find the answer let us know

Check out the Laird.

http://www.lairdtelemedia.com/products/ultraseries.html#CAPDIV

Darrell,

-- "Is the user able to switch the drives in these portable drives? (Talking about the CitiDisk DV)"--

As I stated in my previous message, I have only spoken to "Firestore" who assured me that one can exchange drives using the default drive "cassette" which comes with the device.

My only suggestion to them was that they needed to make this process more obviously seamless.

Yes! One can change drives during a production session. Much like one can change a tape.

The drives can be catalogued as original footage and archived.

It is not inexpensive but a highly cost efficient way to go. Considering that tapes fade over time and can easily be damaged.

Re: one solution
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Lugging a laptop around with all the other equipment may be somewhat of a pain, but you'd have the ability to bypass recording to tape.

Why would you want to bypass recording to tape? Tape is cheap. In the here and now, you'll still want to record to tape at the same time when using any of these hard disk recorders, as the tape is now your master backup archive. Always have a backup! Not having a backup is simply not using good judgement, especially when you are charging for your services and you need to get it right the first time. And, if you are not currently archiving all of the footage you shoot, you should be! Again, tape is cheap and it is still the best way to archive all of that wonderful footage you are creating with your camera. Having an archive of your footage is not only a security blanket should you ever run into problems with your captures (or lose them due to a hard drive failure), it also allows you to *re-purpose* your footage down the road. It always helps to look at things from a business perspective, having the ability to re-purpose your footage is key. This is just one of the ways that the FireStore FS-3 ultimately pays for itself.

At least for now we have a tool that allows us to make a significant reduction in our post-production workflow by eliminating that tedious and often time-consuming task of log and capture from your post-production workflow. With the FS-3, we can capture in the field, easily connect the FS-3 hard drive pod to any computer with IEEE1394 FireWire and start editing. These days, there is no sense in attaching anything to your camera unless it gives you a significant advantage. In my opinion, the FireStore FS-3 does just that.

Sure, there may be some low-end devices that carry a lower price tag, but we all should know by now that in this industry 'cheap' does not necessarily mean 'best' at all... The low-end units simply do not utilize Focus Enhancement's patented 'DTE Technology'. If you still have to transcode your DV capture files so that they are compatible with your own brand of NLE, then what is the point??? If you come from a professional ENG or EFP background, you'll understand that Focus Enhancement's DTE Technology is still the only technology that allows you to capture in your own NLE's native file format. Formats include OMF for Avid/ Avid Express DV, QuickTime for Apple Final Cut Pro, Canopus AVI, Matrox AVI and more. In fact, the FS-3 allows you to transcode to OMF in REAL TIME, that's a big plus... AVID cutters will certainly love this feature.

Yes, it would be nice to have the hard drive capture technology in the camera - and we all long for that. But in the here and now, it's all about the *interface*... Whether you are using the FS-1, FS-2 or FS-3, it's easy to see that the FireStore interface makes the most sense and is the most robust and easiest to use.

I did some testing of the FS-3 a few weeks ago in Boston and also last week at the Woods Hole Film Festival in Cape Cod. Perhaps the following .pdf will help to explain where these devices are headed. http://noisybrain.com/SDTV/DTE/WHFF_FS-3_XL1S.pdf This ad ran in all of the program guides for the Woods Hole Film Festival 2003.

Hope that this info helps everyone,

- don

Don,

-- “Why would you want to bypass recording to tape? Tape is cheap. In the here and now, you'll still want to record to tape at the same time when using any of these hard disk recorders, as the tape is now your master backup archive. Always have a backup! Not having a backup is simply not using good judgment, especially when you are charging for your services and you need to get it right the first time. And, if you are not currently archiving all of the footage you shoot, you should be!”--

Did not think of that! It sounds wise! However, I think it “might be” a toss up between extending camcorder life & the cost of using the HD's as archival media.

The more I think about it… Since it is a fairly new technology… Yes, it is wise to have both!

--"having the ability to re-purpose your footage is key."--

Why would one not be able to re-purpose with HD technology?

Can you expand on "re-purpose" from your point of reference, please.

Laird CapDIV
 

The Laird Capdiv system is really a nice solution. For around 1500.00 you can capture 4.5 hours of video. I have used it in tandem with tapes. That way I have a back-up and when it comes time to transfer the footage it is basically drag and drop. It comes with a 6 hr. battery. weighs about a pound and a half on your belt. If you count the amount of hours you spend in front of your computer capturing video to the computer, this thing saves you time which = money. Besides if we can afford the toys we currently have we can always increase VISA's profits this year by having more toys.........<grin>

David

The only concern I have is that, if my memory serves me correctly...

when capturing to a hard drive it is simultaneously compressing!?!?!?!

If so, I consider it a big drawback!!!

All compression algorithms loose characters, spaces and/or pixels.

Uncompressing does not return the original quality of the data, digital or not.

I wonder, if one can turn off the compression as an option!?!?!

Of course, then it becomes a footprint vs real estate issue.

Hence, until the protable hardrive technology evolves...

Virginia,

The short answer is "no".

The video is already compressed 5:1 in-camera. By feeding the external firewire recording device an output of the firwire port from your camera, you are in essence capturing the same signal that is being recorded to tape.

To clarify, there is no analog-digital-analog media convertor in these units. They are simply being fed a DV stream from your camera's firewire port.

Here is a link to Focus Enhancement's FAQ .pdf's (bottom of the page, plus some streaming video.
http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fi.../firestore.htm

David, are you using the CapiDV system? That 6-hour battery weighs more than 1 pound, it's more like having a bag of sugar strapped around your waist.

- don

battery
 

Yes the battery weighs more than a pound, however the unit by itself is about 1.3 pounds . I use a power belt for my camera anyway so I usually can't go swimming while I shoot.

FREE Focus Enhancements FIRESTORE DTE© Seminars beginning September 23 around the US
 

Hello all,

In case you would like to get a chance to see the new Focus FireStore products *in person* - FOCUS ENHANCEMENTS is presenting a series of FREE seminar workshops specifically focused on the new FireStore FS-3 camera mountable DV disk recorder and DTE© Technology. You can learn how only DTE© Technology allows you to record and digitize in your NLE’s native file format: OMF files for Avid, Quicktime files for Apple FCP, or AVI type2 files for Adobe Premiere. Learn how you can improve your workflow, save time from acquisition to post production, and use the latest in professional DV disk recording technology.

LEARN HOW to SHORTEN your WORKFLOW with Focus Enhancements DTE© TECHNOLOGY:
There will be many different NLE output solutions shown at each location, including: Apple, Avid, Canopus, etc and you will get a chance to see how well the new FireStore FS-3 works with different NLE solutions such as Apple's Final Cut Pro, Pinnacle Edition, Avid DV Express, etc. I will be on hand to demonstrate the new FireStore FS-3 in tandem with DV cameras such as the Canon XL1S and Canon GL2 and other cameras such as the Panasonic AG-DVX100, JVC GY-DV5000, Sony PD-150, DSR250 and DSR300A, among others.

http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow

Chance to win a FireStore FS3 at each location!
See special dealer discounts and promotions
See the latest digital video technology
Talk to industry experts
Understand how “Direct to Edit” DTE© Technology can improve your workflow and save time and money

Table Top exhibits from participating resellers, showing a complete solution from capture (camercorder with FireStore FS-3) to editing (NLE) will be available for browsing during the day. Refreshments will be available for each session.
Presentations will be scheduled with applications on "Improving the Video Acquisition and Editing Process" using the FS-3, and solution packages from Final Cut Pro, Avid, Matrox, Canopus and DV Camcorders from Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Canon. These presentations will be 20-30 minutes in length. Other Resellers, Camcorder Reps., or NLE Reps are likely to be represented as well.
Morning Workshops will be targeted towards the Event Videographer.
Afternoon Workshops will be scheduled for the Broadcast market.
A complete schedule will be provided upon arrival.

http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow

Here is the schedule so far:
September 23: Houston, Texas
September 25: Dallas, Texas
October 8: San Francisco, CA
October 28: Miami, Florida
TBD: Burbank, CA
TBD: New York City
TBD: Chicago, Illinois
TBD: Boston, Massachusetts

REGISTER NOW for FREE:
You can register for free, simply click on the link to the right and fill out the required fields at http://www.focusinfo.com/roadshow/reg.htm If you do not get a chance to register, you may still attend but the cost will be $10 at the door.

You may attend both sessions and all are invited!

Hope to see you there,

- don

ADS has put their DV HD recorder up on their website, 20 Gig HD, direct recording from DV cam...$700. On board lithium battery charges via the firewire connector or external PS. I've ordered one to check it out.

someone should just right some software for a laptop that does this with minimal setup. Just a nice quick record, pause, stop program and that all it does, maybe ad in a database/thumbnail system. Not sure whats required for the camera to control it but worse case senario is that you rig a small wired remote with a few buttons on it to mount on your tripod. This would be sweat because all you would need to make your own recorder would be, and nice small motherboard (like a via epia w/firewire), a nice 300+gb HD, (could be hot swapable for multiple harddrives and loading footage into the editor of choice. a 12v PS (like if you would be doing a car install), build a 12v batterypack out of 10 rechargable C's or D's. The OS could just be a striped down version of linux, setup to run without a display. Might be nice to setup a small 4x40LCD to give some read out on what the unit is upto. could proubly make it about 10inx10in (most likely smaller) at the biggest. granted it wouldn't be the smallest but would sure hold alot of video. adding it up in my head I still comeout to around 600ish. about half that going into the HD so if smaller HD was needed would be less.

Hehe this proubly would be unrealistic its just my geekish side thinking

Found a comparison chart of current Firewire storage for DV. Enjoy!

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/matrix.htm

this list is either out of date or definitely biased because there are several incorrect entries.