Firestore Questions

Steve Witt · October 3rd, 2005, 08:41 AM

Thanks for the comments Daniel,
so are you saying after the rough cutting, as I get into the more detailed editing stages, it may not be as gratifying as using a desktop? But it is still possible, in your opinion, to do all I'm wanting to do exclusively on a laptop?

Daniel Kohl · October 3rd, 2005, 09:03 AM

Theoretically, it is possible. But practically, is either plug and pray or do a lot of research, and testing. It is really a question of speed. I think laptops can do just about anything a desktop can, these days, it just might take them longer.

The creative process involves experimentation, and speed becomes a factor that can determine wether something is practically doable or not. If you have to wait three minutes or even ten seconds to see what you have just tried out looks like, then you will be reluctant to make small changes to it, in order to see what looks best. With a laptop and or any slow system, you may still make the changes, but in the end you wont want to because of the render lag. This can make the creative process very frustrating.

Since you described yourself as a serious hobbiest I thought that you might be quite happy with less than top-of-the line through put for what you want to do. I just saw that the discussion in this thread was going in the direction of I/O delay and rendering times (which is important) but only if you plan to do rendering.

You have to answer your own question. If you just want to edit, and fool around a bit, then you will have absolutely no problems with a laptop. If you want to do a lot of compositing, color correction, and graphics animation, then you might be unhappy, without doing a lot of leg work to get the right combination of laptop and HDD.

I hope that that helps

Todd Kivimaki · October 4th, 2005, 09:55 PM

I still see a hit in preformance when only rough cutting. Especially when audio is involved. I get a lag that is not too bad, but still a pain. I think you will be fine though with a fairly powerful laptop. Although you may spend a little more time during your movie making at least you will have the luxury of working on the road in a hotel.

Dave Merrell · October 7th, 2005, 11:11 PM

The firestore 4 pro (80 gig) is a fine product. However, there are some weaknesses you should know before going that route. It only does FAT32, not NTFS. This will significantly impact your file sizes. Until recently it only had 1.5 hour batteries. That just recently changed, but they now cost twice as much. In addition, the larger battery does not fit the accessory kit cradle for mounting to your camera. Seems like these should all be easy fixes, but they keep stumbling. My biggest complaint is with their website. Ever tried to really find some updated information there? Or search for updates for your system...or info about accessories? It is about the most frustrating and useless website on the entire Internet. All of that being said, the product is solid and works well.
Dave M.

Dan Euritt · October 8th, 2005, 12:25 AM

the fat32 file system on the fs-4 has zero impact on what i do, because i shoot a lot of short clips... long clips do get broken up automatically, but i don't think that will take up more hard drive space than one long continuous clip... in the long run you are better off with shorter clips anyway, for reasons of file copying and file corruption, but there is something to be said for the way that ntfs manages a hard drive.

if you really want to save space on the fs-4 hard drive, use raw dv mode, you can save a percent or two(?).

at this point it looks like i will not be depending on the factory battery system... i like the design and the way it fits, but i experienced some huge delays in how long it takes to cold-boot the system... i'm still researching it, but there are indications that the delay could be mitigated by using an external power supply.

Daniel Wojtowicz · October 20th, 2005, 10:36 PM

For the serious hobbiest. I would not buy a firestore device. Instead just put the money into your computer. Sure it would be great to have but if you can afford to spend a little time capturing the files off your camera than you could have a fast computer to edit the files and would not have to worry too much about the i/o. You can get two SATA hardrives nowdays for 2-300 bucks and then raid them together.

Steve Witt · October 21st, 2005, 10:47 PM

Daniel,
thanks for the insight. I keep hearing about "raid" when talking about computers. what exactly is raid. Is there more than one product or device called raid? Thanks.

Kevin Richard · October 21st, 2005, 10:59 PM

Not really (unless you count the pest control products)... Raid has several different flairs... there is hardware (best kind) and software and then there are different Raid variations on top of that... RAID 0,1,2,3,4,5 blah blah blah... probably better explained on a site that is devoted to that... just google it.

Daniel Kohl · October 22nd, 2005, 11:08 AM

Steve,

I would follow Kevin's suggestion about googeling for accurate info.

I think that RAIDs involve the use of several HDDs at the same time to write information to. The data is divided between the number of drives involved thus increasing the speed of the data transfer by the individual bus speeds of each HDD. As far as I understand it, RAIDs have the pitfall that if data on anyone of the arrayed HDDs is damaged or lost, then it effects information stored on the other HDDs in the array. This is because the array of HDDs functions like one single volume.

I hope that this helps. But honestly, I only have a partial knowledge of this. Please, anyone correct whatever BS I have just spouted.

Kevin Richard · October 24th, 2005, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Kohl

Steve,

I would follow Kevin's suggestion about googeling for accurate info.

I think that RAIDs involve the use of several HDDs at the same time to write information to. The data is divided between the number of drives involved thus increasing the speed of the data transfer by the individual bus speeds of each HDD. As far as I understand it, RAIDs have the pitfall that if data on anyone of the arrayed HDDs is damaged or lost, then it effects information stored on the other HDDs in the array. This is because the array of HDDs functions like one single volume.

I hope that this helps. But honestly, I only have a partial knowledge of this. Please, anyone correct whatever BS I have just spouted.

And that is why I suggest google'ing ;) in SOME of the raid formations the above is true... but Raid 5 for example is used to actually protect the data it writes a checksum at the same time... so if you have 3 100gig drives you only get 200gigs of storage because there is 100gigs of checksums... if one drive goes down you plug in another 100gig drive and it rebuilds the data... it's all very neat but again I'm leaving out plenty of details to them all.

Dale Connelly · November 4th, 2005, 11:07 PM

Steve, it sounds like to me that you just need a common external IEEE1394 (firewire) drive to load your video into for storage and editing.

Try one of these guys:
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Su...ubCategory=414

Jun Tang · December 21st, 2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Merrell

The firestore 4 pro (80 gig) is a fine product. However, there are some weaknesses you should know before going that route. It only does FAT32, not NTFS. This will significantly impact your file sizes. Until recently it only had 1.5 hour batteries. That just recently changed, but they now cost twice as much. In addition, the larger battery does not fit the accessory kit cradle for mounting to your camera.

Hi Dave,

IS that 1.5 hours continous run time? What about standby...

For people using a mac...FAT32 doesn't sound too good. Would there be any problems. I know mac can format drives in FAT32...but from my brief experience and from what I am hearing...that isn't a "great" option is it....?

Kevin Richard · December 21st, 2005, 04:51 PM

It doesn't seem to be a problem with the firestore... if you run it continously it will just break the files up at 4gigs because fat32 can't do more than a 4gig file. But everytime you pause you create a new file anyway so normally this isn't even an issue.

The reason it is fat32 is for it to be compatiple with mac and windows... mac has no problems with fat32 and infact all the new iPods are fat32.

Jun Tang · December 21st, 2005, 05:02 PM

Thanks Kevin....

My concern with continuous was more in regards to the battery. Is 1.5 hours continous recording...? Standby mode....etc. Can the battery be replace or is it like an ipod where the battery is integrated on the unit....which is my assumption.

Kevin Richard · December 21st, 2005, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jun Tang

Thanks Kevin....

My concern with continuous was more in regards to the battery. Is 1.5 hours continous recording...? Standby mode....etc. Can the battery be replace or is it like an ipod where the battery is integrated on the unit....which is my assumption.

The battery can be changed pretty easily. I don't have one of these... I have just researched them.

October 3rd, 2005, 09:03 AM	#17
Daniel Kohl Contributor Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 571	Theoretically, it is possible. But practically, is either plug and pray or do a lot of research, and testing. It is really a question of speed. I think laptops can do just about anything a desktop can, these days, it just might take them longer. The creative process involves experimentation, and speed becomes a factor that can determine wether something is practically doable or not. If you have to wait three minutes or even ten seconds to see what you have just tried out looks like, then you will be reluctant to make small changes to it, in order to see what looks best. With a laptop and or any slow system, you may still make the changes, but in the end you wont want to because of the render lag. This can make the creative process very frustrating. Since you described yourself as a serious hobbiest I thought that you might be quite happy with less than top-of-the line through put for what you want to do. I just saw that the discussion in this thread was going in the direction of I/O delay and rendering times (which is important) but only if you plan to do rendering. You have to answer your own question. If you just want to edit, and fool around a bit, then you will have absolutely no problems with a laptop. If you want to do a lot of compositing, color correction, and graphics animation, then you might be unhappy, without doing a lot of leg work to get the right combination of laptop and HDD. I hope that that helps __________________ Daniel Kohl Frankenstein meets XL1

October 22nd, 2005, 11:08 AM	#24
Daniel Kohl Contributor Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 571	Steve, I would follow Kevin's suggestion about googeling for accurate info. I think that RAIDs involve the use of several HDDs at the same time to write information to. The data is divided between the number of drives involved thus increasing the speed of the data transfer by the individual bus speeds of each HDD. As far as I understand it, RAIDs have the pitfall that if data on anyone of the arrayed HDDs is damaged or lost, then it effects information stored on the other HDDs in the array. This is because the array of HDDs functions like one single volume. I hope that this helps. But honestly, I only have a partial knowledge of this. Please, anyone correct whatever BS I have just spouted. __________________ Daniel Kohl Frankenstein meets XL1

December 21st, 2005, 05:02 PM	#29
Jun Tang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: West LA Posts: 135	Thanks Kevin.... My concern with continuous was more in regards to the battery. Is 1.5 hours continous recording...? Standby mode....etc. Can the battery be replace or is it like an ipod where the battery is integrated on the unit....which is my assumption. __________________ www.tangfilms.com

October 3rd, 2005, 08:41 AM	#16
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Thanks for the comments Daniel, so are you saying after the rough cutting, as I get into the more detailed editing stages, it may not be as gratifying as using a desktop? But it is still possible, in your opinion, to do all I'm wanting to do exclusively on a laptop?

October 4th, 2005, 09:55 PM	#18
Todd Kivimaki Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Elida Ohio Posts: 217	I still see a hit in preformance when only rough cutting. Especially when audio is involved. I get a lag that is not too bad, but still a pain. I think you will be fine though with a fairly powerful laptop. Although you may spend a little more time during your movie making at least you will have the luxury of working on the road in a hotel.

October 7th, 2005, 11:11 PM	#19
Dave Merrell New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 23	The firestore 4 pro (80 gig) is a fine product. However, there are some weaknesses you should know before going that route. It only does FAT32, not NTFS. This will significantly impact your file sizes. Until recently it only had 1.5 hour batteries. That just recently changed, but they now cost twice as much. In addition, the larger battery does not fit the accessory kit cradle for mounting to your camera. Seems like these should all be easy fixes, but they keep stumbling. My biggest complaint is with their website. Ever tried to really find some updated information there? Or search for updates for your system...or info about accessories? It is about the most frustrating and useless website on the entire Internet. All of that being said, the product is solid and works well. Dave M.

October 8th, 2005, 12:25 AM	#20
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	the fat32 file system on the fs-4 has zero impact on what i do, because i shoot a lot of short clips... long clips do get broken up automatically, but i don't think that will take up more hard drive space than one long continuous clip... in the long run you are better off with shorter clips anyway, for reasons of file copying and file corruption, but there is something to be said for the way that ntfs manages a hard drive. if you really want to save space on the fs-4 hard drive, use raw dv mode, you can save a percent or two(?). at this point it looks like i will not be depending on the factory battery system... i like the design and the way it fits, but i experienced some huge delays in how long it takes to cold-boot the system... i'm still researching it, but there are indications that the delay could be mitigated by using an external power supply.

October 20th, 2005, 10:36 PM	#21
Daniel Wojtowicz New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 20	For the serious hobbiest. I would not buy a firestore device. Instead just put the money into your computer. Sure it would be great to have but if you can afford to spend a little time capturing the files off your camera than you could have a fast computer to edit the files and would not have to worry too much about the i/o. You can get two SATA hardrives nowdays for 2-300 bucks and then raid them together.

October 21st, 2005, 10:47 PM	#22
Steve Witt Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: kentucky, USA Posts: 429	Daniel, thanks for the insight. I keep hearing about "raid" when talking about computers. what exactly is raid. Is there more than one product or device called raid? Thanks.

October 21st, 2005, 10:59 PM	#23
Kevin Richard Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 270	Not really (unless you count the pest control products)... Raid has several different flairs... there is hardware (best kind) and software and then there are different Raid variations on top of that... RAID 0,1,2,3,4,5 blah blah blah... probably better explained on a site that is devoted to that... just google it.

November 4th, 2005, 11:07 PM	#26
Dale Connelly New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Texarkana, Texas Posts: 24	Steve, it sounds like to me that you just need a common external IEEE1394 (firewire) drive to load your video into for storage and editing. Try one of these guys: http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Su...ubCategory=414

December 21st, 2005, 04:51 PM	#28
Kevin Richard Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 270	It doesn't seem to be a problem with the firestore... if you run it continously it will just break the files up at 4gigs because fat32 can't do more than a 4gig file. But everytime you pause you create a new file anyway so normally this isn't even an issue. The reason it is fat32 is for it to be compatiple with mac and windows... mac has no problems with fat32 and infact all the new iPods are fat32.