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Old October 2nd, 2009, 07:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by David W. Jones View Post
Yes but Peter makes the point... Sometimes what you want & what you need are two different things!
That's why I followed my comment with "Great post".
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:10 AM   #17
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There is a DVInfo member who has some posts in the Convergent Designs section who owned and EX-1, upgraded to a RED and then sold the RED and went back to the EX-1 with a Nano Flash.

I am sure RED has its places, but my point is that the EX series is going to be very close in image quality if 1080p is your max output resolution.

The price and useability/portability make it seem like a better value strickly speaking for weddings.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:31 AM   #18
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Ultimately the fact remains that you can use pretty much any video camera for just about any video application. It boils down to budget, ergonomics and workflow -- there really is no right or wrong decision; it's simply a matter of "what's right for you."
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:38 AM   #19
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I'm sure there is a model up from the RED Scarlet that has interchangeable lenses that is within my budget.
Hi Pat.

Maybe you're thinking of something like the S35 Scarlet (US$7,000 for the brain and takes interchangeable lenses)?

You've brought up some really interesting points. I agree with you about the proliferation of widescreen HD plasmas and LCDs. Especially over the last 12 months.

Peter is quite right in his post about the hassles of working in 4K or higher with the R3D files, etc. But there is also going to be a different mode that you can shoot in (with the yet-to-be-released Scarlets) which should be perfectly suited for uses like weddings and corporate videos. It's called "FF1080P". I can't, at the moment, find a link which explains FF1080P, but my recall of it is that it will use the image from the full 5K Bayer sensor and convert it to 1080p RGB files. These should be quite easy to edit on a modern NLE (and much smaller file sizes than 5K R3D files!).

I've been shooting corporate video in 720p (using a JVC GY-HD101 with its stock Fujinon zoom lens) for the last 4 years, but have at least one upcoming job where the client wants to display shots of their properties on a large 1080p plasma in their lobby. So I've been kicking around the idea of hiring a Sony PMW-EX1 (which shoots in 1080p on 1/2 inch sensors) for that and hold off on buying until the S35 Scarlet is released. In my case, the S35 Scarlet would be used for both corporate and indie projects (I bring in a DP to shoot the indie stuff). The initial Scarlet kit I'd be looking to get would be brain, I/O module (for the audio XLRs), battery module and LCD screen. Then add to the kit later as I go along.

The main thing that concerns me is lenses - cost of. I spoke this afternoon to my regular DP about inexpensive lens options if I go with the idea of me shooting corporate with an S35 Scarlet and he felt I might be able to start off with some older stills lenses: a 50mm prime for the talking head stuff, an 18-50mm (or 18-70mm) zoom and a 70-200mm zoom. Then later, bit by bit, accumulate a set of RED Pro primes (and zooms). The idea of starting off with some stills lenses might work for controlled corporate shooting (which I do), but I don't know what sort of lenses you would go with for shooting a wedding. That would be pretty random stuff, I imagine. So maybe Peter is right about something like an EX3 being more optimum for a wedding.

But I do love the look of the test images that RED posted (on Reduser) from their 5K sensor. And I'm a big fan of oversampling (such as 5K down to 1080p in the case of the FF1080P format). I personally find oversampling to be more aesthetically pleasing (so long as the material is well shot in the first place).

But it's all theoretical, as Scarlet S35 doesn't currently have a release date (the earlier "Summer 2009 est." has slipped) and I have no idea when they'll really put it out. So I'm prepared to make an EX1 or EX3 purchase in the interim, if customer demand for 1080p continues to increase. But it would be nice if they could release S35 Scarlet sooner rather than later and I can just get the one camera (5K for indie and FF1080P for corporate).
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:44 AM   #20
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But it's all theoretical, as Scarlet S35 doesn't currently have a release date (the earlier "Summer 2009 est." has slipped) and I have no idea when they'll really put it out.
Jim Jannard posted a couple of days ago that the Epic and Scarlet release schedule will be announced some time this month:

"Details of the release schedule for EPIC and Scarlet coming sometime in October. We are taking our time so you won't be disappointed."

Can't wait!
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:08 AM   #21
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David, I believe Scarlet will be 3K, which is less resolution than the current Red One. If there is a mode to save as RGB instead of RAW, it will still be coming from a 3K Bayer sensor which when demosaiced should have an effective resolution around 2.5K. Also realize that 1080P is 1920 wide. So you're really looking at the difference between 2.5K and something just under 2K. And that's before the downrezing.

Also, that file will still be compressed in some form, which means codec support is needed, even if the RAW to RGB conversion happens inside the camera.

I can definitely see the attraction of a Red for corporate work, but like you pointed out pro lenses will make it quite an expensive rig, and all the other things...

But for weddings where you don't know where people are going to move to, you need a reliable autofocus or a deep depth of field. The first Red has never made, but does say it will offer in a fixed lens version of Scarlet. And deep DOF means the S35 size sensor's main advantage is wasted.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:36 AM   #22
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Hi Peter.

The Scarlet brochure has 4 models: 3K, 3K with fixed lens, 5K (S35) and 6K (FF35).

My comments were specifically only about the Scarlet 5K S35 proposed model. My guess is that the de-bayered 5K would yield about 4K of RGB. I think that this should give a nice oversampled FF1080P image. But the proof will be in the pudding and we won't know for sure until they actually release the camera and we can see some FF1080P images from the S35 Scarlet.

I agree with your comments about the difficulties concerning lenses and weddings with an S35 sensor.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:44 AM   #23
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David, Thank you very much for pointing that out to me :). I very much appreciate it.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 02:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
There is a DVInfo member who has some posts in the Convergent Designs section who owned and EX-1, upgraded to a RED and then sold the RED and went back to the EX-1 with a Nano Flash.

Said RED was the biggest mistake he had made in his business career.

I am sure RED has its places, but my point is that the EX series is going to be very close in image quality if 1080p is your max output resolution.

The price and useability/portability make it seem like a better value strickly speaking for weddings.
Tim,

I recently had a chance, along with three other DPs (thanks to one of the local rental houses), to play with all these cams over a full weekend.

See my take on the weekend's shooting in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...0-100-a-2.html
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 03:58 PM   #25
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Scarlet S35

That's the model I was thinking about (S35) instead of the Epic. I have videotaped over 2000 (thousand) weddings and mostly on manual focus and manual white balance and yes manual iris (aperture), I intend to use my Nikkor prime lenses that I have from them film days.16mmF2.8 fisheye, 20mm F2, 24mmF2, 35mmF1.4, 50mmF1.4, 85mmF1,4, 135mmF2 and 180F2.8. No Zooms at all. Can't wait to rent before purchase one.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 07:09 PM   #26
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Weddings require the best resolution and customers are very demanding. Almost all newlyweds have a 1080p 16:9 HD over 42" LCD in their house nowadays. Show a standard def 3:4 letterboxed version of their wedding day and you're looking at a refund.
Do you deliver in HD on Blu-Ray disk, to wedding video clients?
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 01:58 AM   #27
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That's the model I was thinking about (S35) instead of the Epic. I have videotaped over 2000 (thousand) weddings and mostly on manual focus and manual white balance and yes manual iris (aperture), I intend to use my Nikkor prime lenses that I have from them film days.16mmF2.8 fisheye, 20mm F2, 24mmF2, 35mmF1.4, 50mmF1.4, 85mmF1,4, 135mmF2 and 180F2.8. No Zooms at all. Can't wait to rent before purchase one.
Pat, you are certainly very experienced and know what you are getting yourself into. And it seems like you can make it work and be an advantage for you. And renting before buying makes esp. great sense in your case, since it seems your shoots are almost by definition one day affairs (well hopefully longer for those exchanging the nuptials ;)).

BTW, just in fairness to those who gave advice here, we were all saying that Scarlet IS the Red model most suited for your needs, not Epic (too expensive) and not Red One (too heavy and too expensive).

So best of luck and you obviously have a great business going for yourself, which is very impressive.
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Last edited by Peter Moretti; October 3rd, 2009 at 03:01 AM.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 07:36 AM   #28
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...................

You don't need (even want) the shallow DOF that the Red offers. Red's big advantages are when it comes to digital cinema, where you have time to setup shots, use a focus puller, have a major set of sticks or steadycam operator and know when the talent is going to move and where they are going to stop. .................

JMHO, and truly, good luck w/ everything.
Yet people are shooting with the 5DII every day without pulling focus. In many ways this is a more limited camera than red one. The filmic look is desirable in many markets. The two lower scarlets only have a 2/3 sensor and will not have significant dof control.

At this point in the under $10K market it looks like the large Japanese companies, not red, will be the ones with the compelling products.

Dan Chung shot this a couple days ago with a 5D and 7D.

China's 60th Anniversary national day - timelapse and slow motion - 7D and 5DmkII on Vimeo
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 08:27 AM   #29
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Yet people are shooting with the 5DII every day without pulling focus. In many ways this is a more limited camera than red one. The filmic look is desirable in many markets. The two lower scarlets only have a 2/3 sensor and will not have significant dof control.
They must be using lenses that are well stopped down or using the camera's auto focus system. Either that or the subjects don't move that much, which to me is extremely un-cinematic.

This DOF thing does get obsessional at times, many productions with extremely high production values and most broadcast television use 2/3" cameras. Perhaps people are trying to create fantasy wedding videos, I don't know, but many human moments can be lost if they're out of focus. Viewing a video in 5 or 10 years time, the little moments caught of a now dead aunt doing something funny with a niece or the bride's mother will have more meaning to the clients.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 10:04 AM   #30
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They must be using lenses that are well stopped down or using the camera's auto focus system. Either that or the subjects don't move that much, which to me is extremely un-cinematic.

This DOF thing does get obsessional at times, many productions with extremely high production values and most broadcast television use 2/3" cameras. Perhaps people are trying to create fantasy wedding videos, I don't know, but many human moments can be lost if they're out of focus. Viewing a video in 5 or 10 years time, the little moments caught of a now dead aunt doing something funny with a niece or the bride's mother will have more meaning to the clients.
There are plenty of wedding that have been shot with the 5DII. To me a surprising number. Talented people use the technology well, others overdo everything and don't tell the story. But there's no need for theoretical discussions of how large sensors might be used - what is being done is available to see. The guys who know what they're doing stop down when appropriate. They also use the low light ability of the camera, which looks much better than what can be done with traditional video.

Television is shot with 2/3 because that's what's available. Sensor size positively correlates with production value. The movie District 9 was shot with red, and I thought that looked great. I think that's where red will play - on the higher end. Canon can build a $1500 camera body with a 35mm film size sensor at a profit. Red can't. I'm sure Sony will join the race after they realize they have no choice.

I'm pulling for red, however. I feel the large video companies have behaved like a oligopoly.
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