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Old June 17th, 2005, 09:14 PM   #1
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What is 1080 native HD?

I understand 1080i and 1080p. Is there such a thing as 1080n? If so what cameras are shooting it? Thanks.
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Old June 18th, 2005, 12:01 AM   #2
 
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I've never heard of a format called "Native HD." There is "Native HDV" which means that the application can edit m2t files properly, but that could be either 1080i or 720p, depending on the camera that generated the HDV.
where did you see/hear the phrase "1080n?"
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Old June 18th, 2005, 01:37 AM   #3
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Good question, I guess I should have went into more detail.

I'm working for a production company that is producing a show that airs on The Outdoor Channel starting Jan of 2006. The company that is paying for the production wanted us to shoot some HD footage this year so that we may begin building an HD library. They have told us that beginning in Jan of 2007 they want to be able to commit to HD programming on the new HD Outdoor Channel. The question as to what format the channel would be broadcast was brought up. I had mentioned that some channels were broadcasting at 720i and some at 1080i, and we wanted to know where we needed to be in that regard. We were told that the channel only excepts "1080 Native HD". That's directly from an engineer with the channel.

So, I'm confused. I'm thinking now that native must be the wrong term. I've never heard of it either.
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Old June 18th, 2005, 03:58 AM   #4
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Native 1080i means it originates in 1080i.

For instance Sony FX/Z1 is not native 1080p camera because 1080p is derived from 1080i. There were posts that mentioned if 1080p is written to 1080i, it isn't native 1080p. It is.

If want native 1080i, all HD camera companies except JVC make these. JVC's 1080i derived from 720p. It isn't native. I believe new Panasonic #200 will not be native either because no uncompressed 1080p available. People mentioned it would be written to 1080i, but that happens after compression so it not apply in this case.

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Old June 18th, 2005, 06:00 AM   #5
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1) Perhaps the engineer meant that the capturing sensor of the camera should not do any upconversion. There should be a 1:1 relationship with respect to the sensor vs. its output.

2) Perhaps he was trying to say the HDV isn't acceptable due to its heavy compression. But being an engineer, you would think he would use standard terminology.


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Old June 18th, 2005, 04:11 PM   #6
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I think Uncompressed Raw HD is native HD.

An example is fiber optic HD transmissions from studio HD cameras to master control or in the case of a HD News Helicopter, the fiber optics stream the video from a CINEFLEX Hi-Def to a fiber to HD-SDI adapter to the 2 half-rack HDCAM VTRs that would pass the HD-SDI signal through a switcher then to the H.264 transmitter. I really wish Vancouver's Chopper 9 has this HD setup. Imagine, HDTV breaking news from Chopper 9!

below is an image of the half rack HDCAM VTR:

http://news.sel.sony.com/digitalimag.../26/173826.jpg

a bigger image is below:

http://news.sel.sony.com/digitalimag.../20/173820.jpg
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Old June 18th, 2005, 08:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyge Floyd
We were told that the channel only excepts "1080 Native HD". That's directly from an engineer with the channel.
So, I'm confused. I'm thinking now that native must be the wrong term. I've never heard of it either.
No one asked this engineer to clarify what he meant by 1080 Native HD? No one dared ask him if he meant current broadcast standard 1080i? Not even a request for a full data sheet of the 1080 HD requirements he believes are acceptable? Was everyone too afraid of seeming stupid if they were made to look like they didn't know eh?
So you're left with having to pose the question here, rather than have the engineer ante-up on his understanding of what's required, and as you can see there's not been one definitive response to your query...

Clever dude your technician!! He makes a general statement about "1080 HD" that has enough vagueness about it to throw everyone off, and he doesn't have to demonstrate whether he actually knows himself...

When is 1080 (whether i or p) recorded and captured from a camera not native? How many consumers sitting in their homes watching that video are going to be able to spot the difference, and even if they do; will they go screaming to the nearest complaints department if the content was gripping enough to keep their attention?

For my 2 cents worth: Native usually means the originating format, and not something converted from any different format. Saying "1080 HD Native" makes about as much sense in my book as saying "3CCD Native"...
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Old June 18th, 2005, 08:45 PM   #8
 
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It could easily, and likely does mean that the station only accepts footage that originated in 1080, and could be either 60i or 30p or even 60p. I've never heard that referred to as a "format" but depending on how it was used in a sentence, I can see how it might come across as a format rather than a qualifier.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 02:46 PM   #9
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There was a time that I "format" described pretty good how the signal was supposed to look like. Nowadays (digital) video signals can be manipulated in so many ways (compression, rescaling, channel coding, transcoding...) before ending up in a standarized format containing all basic properties of that format but not including a bunch of artefacts which can be "hidden" in the "format". The word "native"has been introduced since then. It means not manipulated. This includes CCD sensor descriptions and read-out architectures, signal transformations and display resolutions as well
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Old June 20th, 2005, 03:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre De Clercq
The word "native"has been introduced since then. It means not manipulated. This includes CCD sensor descriptions and read-out architectures, signal transformations and display resolutions as well
That's right. You can't have 1080i and/or 720p CCDs and claim camera produces 1080p. If get 1080p out of it, it is not true 1080p; is not native. That's why Z1's 1080/25p is called CF25. New Panasonic #200 will be similar case.

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Old June 20th, 2005, 03:46 PM   #11
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Argh Radek! Your posts frustrate me to no end.

Quote:
People mentioned it would be written to 1080i, but that happens after compression so it not apply in this case.
No no no. Despite what Graeme says, interlace is form of sampling - not compression. It's possible to have an uncompressed interlaced signal.

The interlace does NOT necessarily occur in the compressor. MPEG-2 has flags to determine whether its compressing a progressive frame or an interlaced frame. In the case of the FX1 and Z1U it is configured to compress every frame it sees as interlaced, regardless as to whether it is sourced as interlaced or progressive. The DV (and DVCPRO) codecs automatically look at the image, regardless as to whether its interlaced or not, and compress as interlaced or progressive depending on the the content of the frame.

Quote:
You can't have 1080i and/or 720p CCDs and claim camera produces 1080p.
You can however have a 1080 line CCD that is capable of sampling interlaced as well as progressive. Furthermore, you can bet that Panasonic will claim the HVX200 records "native 1080p" regardless of their CCD resolution is.

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Old June 20th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven White
Argh Radek! Your posts frustrate me to no end.
You and me both...

He's brought up his "revelation" about the HVX's capabilities many, many, many times and numerous professionals on this board have told him that he's incorrect and explained that it will work like every other 24p camera on the planet, and yet he still runs around saying that the HVX 200 can't possibly have 1080p on it.

Grr... Arg.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 04:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Steven White
You can however have a 1080 line CCD that is capable of sampling interlaced as well as progressive. Furthermore, you can bet that Panasonic will claim the HVX200 records "native 1080p" regardless of their CCD resolution is.
I hate to repeat myself. Here goes last time. Uncompressed analog on #200 is either 720p or 1080i. That means that CCDs have these two modes. After this point compression happens and stream is written to tape as interlaced, but is native 720p or 1080i. If 1080p is created somewhere, is not at CCD, unless Panasonic decided to sabotage camera so that user can't get uncompressed 1080p. This is unlikely.

Yes, Panasonic 200 records 1080p, but not native 1080p, but made from 1080i or 720p, similar to FX/Z1.

Why claim about the camera something it not have?

Analogy to DVX does not hold. We are talking apples and oranges.

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Old June 20th, 2005, 05:08 PM   #14
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Uncompressed analog on #200 is either 720p or 1080i. That means that CCDs have these two modes
You do realize that before going to the uncompressed analog, the image is digitally sampled from the CCDs so that a variety of colour correction, gamma, and other operations can be performed? 720p and 1080i are output formats, necessary for displays and the camera to talk to each other - and need not have anything to do with the CCDs whatsoever. It should be obvious that this is the case, because the digital-to-analog converters (DACs) in the camera are higher bit-depth than the analog out bit depth (i.e., they probably have 10 to 14 bit DACs, while the output format is 8 bit YUV).

Quote:
Panasonic 200 records 1080p, but not native 1080p, but made from 1080i or 720p, similar to FX/Z1.
You have this totally backwards. The Panasonic HVX200 "makes" 1080i from 1080p, not the other way around. When you get the footage into your computer, you re-assemble the 1080p from the 1080i.

The only place your "argument" is even relevant is at 1080p60 - which is something they have never claimed.

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Old June 20th, 2005, 05:13 PM   #15
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Radek, you are completely wrong.

The HVX supports 1080p and 1080i scanning from its CCD. Just as the DVX natively scans its CCD at 480p or 480i, the HVX scans its CCD at 1080p or 1080i.

That is how it works. That natively-scanned image gets carried within a 1080i data stream, yes. But the data coming off the CCD is 1080p or 1080i, depending on which mode the camera is set for.

Since your original supposition on this subject seems to stem from statements in the HVX preview article at http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/, let me just say that I was the author of that article. If you're inferring that it's 1080i-only from something you read in that article, I can authoritatively state that you read it wrong. Nothing in that article should be taken to imply that the camera doesn't do 1080p, because it most certainly does. If there was confusing wording, then there was confusing wording and I apologize for that, but confusing wording cannot be extrapolated forward into making incorrect claims.

The HVX does 1080p. It does not "scale" or "de-interlace" or "up-rez" to get to 1080p. It is native 1080p. Its signal gets displayed within a 1080i data stream, but it is scanned at 1080/24p or 1080/30p.
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