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Old July 14th, 2005, 04:50 AM   #16
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Dave: the "problem" is not in the display. The "problem" is in the recording. If
you record at 60 or 30 frames per second in a PAL country you can (sometimes,
depends) see lights flicker due to the fact they are running on 50 hz....

I can display NTSC movies just fine on my multi-standard set here.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 06:53 AM   #17
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I just got back from Argentina where they have PAL. The first time I turned on the TV in my hotel room I did notice a flicker. I got used to it almost immediately however, and it didn't bother me at all. I also did a big project in PAL, and have to say that I enjoyed working in that format much more than NTSC. We were projecting video on two huge screens with 10,000 lumen projectors and the additional resolution was certainly a plus. In fact, I'm starting another project right now where we will do more large screen projection in Philadelphia and I'll probably use PAL for that as well since the projectors and computers don't care about the format. Widescreen PAL seems like a nice intermediate between NTSC and HD.

Yes, the Z-1 does have a flicker reduction setting in the menus but I haven't tried it. It only works in 60i mode however. Also, you should only have flicker problems with flourescent or gas discharge lamps I think. Halogen and incandescent lamps should have enough filament latency to smooth out any alternating current flicker.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 12:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Lohman
Dave: the "problem" is not in the display. The "problem" is in the recording. If
you record at 60 or 30 frames per second in a PAL country you can (sometimes,
depends) see lights flicker due to the fact they are running on 50 hz....

I can display NTSC movies just fine on my multi-standard set here.

I see, that's pretty bad. I never used a NTSC camera in a PAL country, but I guess that's an issue.

So, what if everyone goes 50Hz? According to Boyd it doesn't look that bad, but I'm assuming that 720p60 is better than 720p50: same resolution, lower framerate.

NTSC countries are going to have the better HDTV format from now on...
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Old July 14th, 2005, 02:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Pank
when my CRT is set to 60hz, flicker is incredibly noticable.

Setting the refresh rate to 100Hz solves the flicker.

BTW, LCD, plasma and TFT screens do not in my experience have any noticable flicker, no matter what the refresh rate.
You're comparing apples to petunias. Your CRT monitor is a progressive scan device, so 60Hz will flicker, especially under the strobe of ambient flourescent lighting. A television is interlaced and the image is seldom so static. You've already discovered that LCD and plasma displays are not interlaced and actually have no refresh. Changing the refresh rate of your graphics adapter, so long as it is within the input range of the monitor, will have no effect on them.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 03:55 PM   #20
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I thought the whole issue with 'digital' was to get away from the PAL/NTSC argument. HDV uses a true/full 8 bit color system (more than PAL or NTSC) and supports digital progressive displays(formerly known as computer monitors) . In other words, on my progressive lcd/computer display, it doesn't matter where you shoot, I can watch it. Unless you give me some old interlaced SD crap, then I have a problem.

Besides, this whole display issue is nothing more than a consipracy with the CIA and KGB fronting for their French masters. Yes, just blame it on the French.:)
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Old July 17th, 2005, 06:26 AM   #21
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Oh and to set something straight, PAL was not introduced *AFTER* NTSC or
as a better standard. It just evolved in Europe instead of the US. Different
places different needs (the one driving thing for the differences was of course
the power differences between the continents).

I would've loved one standard as well, but we just aren't there yet...

However I wouldn't be suprised if PAL countries will gradually shift over to 60
frames per second or higher, so perhaps one day we will have one set of
standards that can be displayed everywhere.
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Old July 17th, 2005, 08:50 AM   #22
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Is PAL countries do move to a higher speed, they'll probably decide on 100fps. There's no way they'd ever move to a multiple of 29.97. However, moving to 150fps which would be a multiple of both 25 and 30. Finally NTSC would have to drop it's ludicrous non-integer frame rate and all countries could share the same frames per second equally.

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Old July 18th, 2005, 05:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Boze
You're comparing apples to petunias...
really? ...And I thought I was comparing monitors.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 01:14 PM   #24
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Okay, so let's say two guys buy the HVX and shoot their own footage. One is in Europe and shoots at 720p50 and the other in the US and shoots 720p60.

They both burn their stuff on a HD-DVD and go overseas (US to Europe and vice-versa). So what happens? Does both of their footage just works with no problems or are there issues here?

Hopefully HDTV will just switch between refresh rates when the HD-DVD is inserted and play it in 60Hz or 50Hz accordingly.
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Old July 18th, 2005, 01:25 PM   #25
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You'd hope so.... But although all TVs in Europe made in the last 15-20 years or so would play NTC with no bother, I don't think any mass-market North American TVs have ever played PAL.

The good news is that, I think, all modern displays for HD, projectors, LCD, Plasma will play both NTSC and PAL, so they should play HD at 50p or 60p ok too.

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Old July 18th, 2005, 05:26 PM   #26
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I'd hope so Graeme, but that isn't my experience. I just finished a PAL project using my Z1. I tried to view it on my 3 month old Panasonic 37" plasma TV, 9 month old Samsung 22" widescreen LCD TV, and a two year old Sony 17" widescreen LCD. None of them would lock into the signal. The spec sheets for all of these screens indicate they use the NTSC system. Maybe I'm just unlucky though? :-) I did not try 50i HDV, just 50i PAL 720x576. The only way I was able to edit my footage was by using the Samsung screen plugged into my G5's second DVI port with FCP in digital cinema desktop mode.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 09:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ferdinand
PAL appeared after NTSC, improving the image resulotion from 480 lines to 576 with a unnoticeable cost in framerate: 60hz to 50hz.
..
So why are PAL territories sticking to PAL? Why not keep PAL compatible TVs that support 576i, but display HDTV at 60hz.
..
Is this a marketing ploy, or is there a logical reason for this?
Ohh, you sure know how to ask them ;)

The reason is back wards compatibility, if you seen 60i or 30 converted to film (1fps off from PAL signal) or PAL, the results are not so good without some phenomenal processing algorithm. Smudgy, happy vision if done wrong. And as the world isn't all things American, or all things their minority NTSC partners they stick with something easily live convertible with existing footage, and footage from existing SD cameras.

Their are other advantages, and I don't know wherever this is common or just my TV set. Switching from PAL to NTSC is shocking, less display, and colour, and the colour is suddenly off. So PAL does provide a much richer, Cinema like, experience on my TV. Because you have the slower rate you have higher resolution, or in HDTV less compression ratio, for better image.

Reasons why 50i not such a problem. TV's are designed to have a pixel decay rate that reduces the flicker (just turn off the fluorescent light). Some of the population hardly (or apparently all Americans that come over here and are not used to it) notices flicker at 50hz, some still notice it above 60i. But on modern TV's all this canbe digitally buffered and theoretically displayed at 100, or 120Hz, thus eliminating flicker.

So, except for sports etc, all Television would be better viewed at 25fps, with support at 50fps. You get better lower compression image quality. With HDTV we have the opportunity to display 25/50fps all around the world. So why is NTSC market so far behind still sticking to 30/60 ;)
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 12:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress
But "NTSC" has it's ludicrous 29.97fps frame rate, not 30fps...<snip>
Graeme
29.97 fps ludicrous? I don't know, kind of fits right in with all our other incredibly logical measuring systems:
5280 feet = 1 Mile
3 feet = 1 Yard (and hey, a Yard is REALLY close to a Meter)
12 inches = 1 foot
Finally inches are split into convenient 1/16th increments.


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Old July 23rd, 2005, 06:55 AM   #29
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Nice try Philip! :-)

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Old July 24th, 2005, 09:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ferdinand
PAL appeared after NTSC, improving the image resulotion from 480 lines to 576 with a unnoticeable cost in framerate: 60hz to 50hz.

But with HDTV come along, this resolution gain is going to disappear, with 1280x720 progressive and 1440x1080 interlaced being ubiquitous in the world market.

So why are PAL territories sticking to PAL? Why not keep PAL compatible TVs that support 576i, but display HDTV at 60hz.

Most PAL TVs nowadays support PAL 60 anyway, so it's not like it makes any sense.

Is this a marketing ploy, or is there a logical reason for this?
I think the reason this question has created so much discussion is that it actually ignores the real problem. Instead of making different cameras that work at different framerates, Sony, Pana, JVC etc should be making units that work at both standards (they do it with decks after all). There could be some huge technical challenge that I'm overlooking here, but I suspect the only reason that manufacturers continue to bring out US and European models with different frame rates is to discourage cross-border trading (US units are typically cheaper by 10 - 25% depending on brand).

BTW the "flicker" that everyone refers to is more related to the interlaced format, and the display technology. As others have pointed out 100Hz refresh rates tend to negate this. Yes you will get a sharper image at higher refresh rates (less motion blur) but I reckon if you did a blind test between modern NTSC and PAL TV's then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...
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