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Old October 13th, 2005, 05:20 PM   #1
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Deciding which camera

Hi everybody, new poster here...

My story starts looking for a camera, known as prosumer ones (i dont like the term but is a standard i guess, so serves me to get you the idea of what im talking about)

As i was looking the more flexibility for my money i ended looking at the Canon XL1s or XL2, but, what discouraged me was the impossibility of output 4:2:2 and the fact this cameras are a little overpriced considering the new JVC GY-HD100 which i liked at first glance. (the JVC is just 1000 usd over the Canon XL2 in some places)

But will tell you my situation first so you get the idea, primarly i want/need:
1*4:2:2 possibility or a decent grade for keying footage
2*PAL system with possibility of NTSC (i have a SD vtr with 4:2:2 I/O in NTSC)
3*Removable lenses
4*"Prosumer"

1* Ok so this position me on the new XL H1 or the Panasonic right?
Or is there other camera with 4:2:2 direct output without passing through compression?

2* I guess this can be achieved with those multiformat HD cameras either by recording 50i/60i or their analog in progressive mode and then downgrading to the SD i need at the moment or i use less
eg: i buy a SD/NTSC and anytime i need PAL i record on 50i and downgrade

3* Canon and JVC
4* Im here for this ;)

I was just to buy today a very well priced JVC GY-HD100U (despite it has CA and/or SSE on some situations), but then looked at what were price predictions for this camera, and this price was by far high than the camera was selling for, so I hope something similar happens with the Canon XL H1, in your experience, expected prices for unrealeased stuff, went considerably down after release?

Thanks in advance
Rodrigo
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Old October 13th, 2005, 05:32 PM   #2
 
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Only the new Panasonic (which isn't available yet) will give you 4:2:2, and if the JVC is out of your price range, then so is the new Panny. The others are all 4:2:0, unless you purchase the Canon, (again not shipping yet) and use the SDI out, which will then require a substantial computer and reasonably expensive large RAID, none of which is field useable or portable.
You can convert HDV to 4:2:2 using a variety of tools, CineForm works great, but uncompressed is even better, but again requires a powerhouse computer setup.
since you want removeable lenses, I'd be jumping on the Canon, except you don't get 4:2:2 and the cam isn't switchable from NTSC to PAL. And it's more expensive than the JVC, which you said was too expensive.

Seems like you either need to lower your requirements or raise your price bar.
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Old October 13th, 2005, 10:57 PM   #3
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Oh, no maybe i didnt explained myself enough...
the JVC was at a very good price, and i can afford it, but i take my time on this things because despite having the money to buy it i want to get the most suitable/comfortable camera for me.

The JVC is a good camera, but... there is always that but, a new camera from canon (which suits my needs better i guess, but, that much?) is about to be released...
As i said, there are 3 main features i want
*Good green for Keying
*NTSC/PAL easy to switch (doesnt matter if i have to downgrade a HD footage i guess)
*changeable lenses

Regarding the JVC, it is at first glance not suitable for keying... but that simple? 4:2:0 is really far from 4:2:2 at keying?
There are many sites with advices on how to shoot miniDV for keying, but want to know personal experience...

Douglas, that converter you mention about (lets say i have the computational side resolved) does it work good at the time of keying?

thanks in advance
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Old October 13th, 2005, 11:39 PM   #4
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Just as a side note - I suspect that analog -> 4:2:2 and HD-SDI -> 4:2:2 digital intermediate solutions will become more common soon.

-Steve
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Old October 14th, 2005, 11:34 AM   #5
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The JVC analogue component out is 4:2:2. It's only 4:2:0 to tape which is a limitation that you'll run into with the Canon.

I'm investigating if you can get the JVC camera and deck combo whether I can run the JVC analogue 720p60 signal to the BR-50 component in to the HDMI-out for acquisition.
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Old October 14th, 2005, 12:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin Huang
The JVC analogue component out is 4:2:2. It's only 4:2:0 to tape which is a limitation that you'll run into with the Canon.

I'm investigating if you can get the JVC camera and deck combo whether I can run the JVC analogue 720p60 signal to the BR-50 component in to the HDMI-out for acquisition.
Cool, that would satisfy the needs for a studio green shot
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Old October 14th, 2005, 02:37 PM   #7
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There's no component input on that deck, or any HDV product for that matter.
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Old October 14th, 2005, 03:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Green
There's no component input on that deck, or any HDV product for that matter.
Argh. I re-read the specs. They only have component out??? It's an HD deck fer chrissakes!!! Talk about idiotic!
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Old October 14th, 2005, 03:16 PM   #9
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Remember that audio with the Canon H1 will also be an issue, as it will undergo mpeg1 layer II compression. You would need to capture your audio by other means if you want uncompressed. Which is a setback for corporate or stand and deliver (my needs), but not an issue with making movies and you have a sound-crew on location anyway.

My hunch is that the new pany HVX will meet those needs. Only I'm not sure how sharp an image the fixed lens will resolve. The canon XL1s has spoiled me, giving me great SD quality with a decent lens. I don't think HDV is gonna compare as well to HD as DV does to SD. Since's now all about color space and compression. Were more data means more dollars.
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Old October 14th, 2005, 03:22 PM   #10
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Well, i have access to a Panasonic AJ-650 with the SDI option, it features analog component I/O and SDI I/O at 4:2:2 so the JVC seems to be a good partner for this..
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Old October 14th, 2005, 07:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ferling
I don't think HDV is gonna compare as well to HD as DV does to SD.
What the?!!

So where are you getting your information on HD specifications? All the specs on HD that I've seen over the past 3-4 years indicate that HDV has no need to 'compare' with HD as it's essentially compliant with the vast majority of HD perameters.

I sometimes wonder what planet I'm on, when I see comments like this - that newbees are going to read - and no-doubt believe.

Might pay to know all of the permutations of HD before making such a blanket statement about a format's quality in regards to those specifications - unless of course you're wanting to make deliberate omissions from the HD specification in order to denigrate what you perceive (and want others to also perceive) as deficient technology?
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Old October 15th, 2005, 10:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin Huang
Argh. I re-read the specs. They only have component out??? It's an HD deck fer chrissakes!!! Talk about idiotic!
I've noticed that there are few if any HD recording devices with component inputs, which seems like a deliberate attempt to make it harder to copy HD material. Draw your own conclusions on why that might be the case...
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