HVX200 vs XL H1 vs Z1 ,my conclusion at DVinfo.net

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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:31 AM   #1
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HVX200 vs XL H1 vs Z1 ,my conclusion

Forgive me ,I am not as good at english as Kaku, but if you are interested in the defference of image quality between XLH1 and Z1 and HVX200,I inform you my experience at video-camera shop in Japan.
I went to 2 shops. At one of the shop I compared the image side by side of sony z1 and hvx200. Their display monitor were the same. I set HVX200 to 1080i/60i mode and full auto mode. The hvx200 image was amazing! The color was too rich, after looking at the hvx200 image, z1 color seemed like a toy camera. I set the white balance of z1 manually with white paper, but result was the same. Red flowers seemed like dark pink flower, but when I looked at HVX200, the red was red itself. So beautifull.
Then I cheked the detail part of the flower (because I did not have resolusion chart there),at least for my eyes, resolusion and sharpness of the two cameras seemed almost the same.

Then I went to the other shop, where I compared FX1 and XL-H1. FX1 image was dark and blurred, XL H1 was sharp and the resolution was apparently higher than FX1, You dont need res chart, just a glace can help you recognise the deffrence of resolution. I felt a sense of perspective with XL H1 image. Then I twisted FX1 to shaprness +12,AE +2, color +2. Though FX1 image got bright and kinda sharp as XL H1, but resolution were completely defferent. The image of XL H1 was so real. I recored the image inside the shop on my HDV tape for a few minutes.

So far, My conclusion; richness of color, HVX wins. Resolution,XL H1 wins.

Following profile shows this fact, I think.
DVCPRO-HD = 1280 luma pixel/ 640,640 chorma pixel/100Mbps
HDCAM = 1440 luma pixel / 480,480 chorma pixel /140Mbps
HDV = 1440 luma-pixel / 720,0 chorma pixel /25Mbps

Last edited by Kenji Kodama; January 5th, 2006 at 08:38 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:20 PM   #2
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1. This is the least professional test I have ever heard of.

2. What is this? What is HDCAM doing here?
DVCPRO-HD = 1280 bw-pixel /640 color pixel/100Mbps
HDCAM = 1440 bw-pixel /480 color pixel /140Mbps
HDV = 1440 bw-pixel /480,0 color pixel /25Mbps

There are no B/W pixels. If you mean bits, there are for instance as many luma as chroma bits on DVCPRO-HD, 2x as many luma bits on HDV, etc.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:27 PM   #3
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Great Information Kenji, and welcome to DVINFO.NET, come on in and have a seat at the round table of discussion.

Thanks for the comparisons. I sure wish you were able to see the HVX-200 and the XL-H1 and the HD100 all in full automatic on the same monitor at the same time. Now THAT would have been a wonderful comparison of colors and image detail since those are the top contending camera right now when it comes to moviemakers (like me). The Z1U/FX1 is wonderful as well, but I think the general concensus is....that's a great Videographers camera...better then any of the other three in terms of value. Our concern today is....MAKING MOVIES & MUSIC VIDEOS. *smile* (well, at least mine is)

We have yet to find someone who has done this yet, but it's coming...the day is coming very soon. This way, people will be able to make final decisions on the equipment they need to buy for the projects they need to shoot in 2006.

1. Colors
2. Image Detail
3. Picture Quality

These are the three most important things the HD100 & XL-H1 & the HVX-200 cameras can provide us at this stage of the game. We already know they all have filmlike motion characteristics and can be tweaked by a good Cinematographer to provide whatever movie-look and film-motion we need. Question is.....how pretty will the picture be under most motion picture circumstances.

DRAMATIC MOVIES
HIP-HOP MUSIC VIDEOS
HI SPEED ACTION FLICKS
ROCK MUSIC VIDEOS
PERIOD MOVIES
ALTERNATIVE/POP MUSIC VIDEOS
COMEDY MOVIES
FUTURISTIC PICTURES WITH LOTS OF VISUAL EFFECTS

That's where the rubber meets the road, and we need to be able to test these cool cameras.

- ShannonRawls.com
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Last edited by Shannon Rawls; January 4th, 2006 at 08:04 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 07:10 PM   #4
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that means sampling

Marusek

I cited these number from this site and many other sites;
http://www.canopus.com/contentfiles/...paper70b72.pdf

Last edited by Kenji Kodama; January 4th, 2006 at 09:30 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:09 PM   #5
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XL H1 vs FX1 site

If someone provides me 120MB web space,I can upload m2t file footage comparing FX1 and XL H1 side by side I recorded on my hdv tape.

Or, you can see following site , this is not my site.
The site owner also seems to compare H1 and FX1,He said he recorded
on his tape and captured these still image from hdv using pc software.

http://aponyan.jugem.jp/?eid=32

the former image is H1, the latter is FX1.

again

XL H1
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200511/27...60_1882740.jpg

FX1
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200511/25...60_2365677.jpg
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:19 PM   #6
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WOW,

Japan looks like a cool place to be!

- ShannonRawls.com
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:25 PM   #7
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Petr, when he says Kenji says bw-pixel essentially he means luma pixels per line. And Kenji's numbers are pretty much right with the exception of HDV.

DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2 and subsamples. So in 1920x1080 mode it subsamples to 1280 wide, and in 1280x720 it subsamples to 960 pixels wide. This is the luma channel (which is black and white, remove chorma links and you have old school b and w). In 4:2:2 sampling it means the two chorma channels are half the resolution wide.

HDV is more complicated with 4:2:0 sampling. So chroma is half as wide and half as high also, so the "colour" has 1/4 the number of pixels as the luma. So luma is 1440 x 1080 so chroma channels would be 720 x 540.

HDCAM numbers are spot on. Why he posted it, I don't know, but as one of the fairly large industry standards I think its a good idea.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:30 PM   #8
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I've been using the Z1 for almost a year, the FX1 for over a year and I (and my friends/colleagues) have gotten amazing footage. Don't discount those cameras! Heck, I've had 2 shorts shot by Jon Fordham in five fests (2 were HDV presentations that blew people away). One was shot on the HD10, the other was shot on the FX1.

I don't know how much a better camera will give someone who isn't quite as versed in digital/HD videography a better product. Take a look at this:

http://www.lumieremedia.com/tomorrow...orrow_trailer/ (Z1)

http://www.lumieremedia.com/recent-p...otel-room.html (HD10)

http://homepage.mac.com/hmcknight/re...eTheater8.html (HD10, downcoverted to DV)

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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:05 PM   #9
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Kenji and Keith,

Sorry, I did not understand that the Kenji's data:

DVCPRO-HD = 1280 bw-pixel /640 color pixel/100Mbps
HDCAM = 1440 bw-pixel /480 color pixel /140Mbps
HDV = 1440 bw-pixel /480,0 color pixel /25Mbps

was the sampling/line, in which case it should have been:

DVCPRO-HD = 1280/640/640 or 960/480/480 @100Mbps
HDCAM = 1440/480/480 @140Mbps
HDV = 1440/720 @25Mbps

Thanks for claryfying it.

Sorry, when I said unprofessional test, but it is fairly hard to compare cameras in a store. I don't know about Japan, but in the US and Europe the salesmen can set the monitor, and the cameras, to make the ones, which are more profitable to them, to look better. You'd have to first set back the default values before adjusting everything. Salesmen are playing the same tricks in the showrooms, where they demonstrate Hi Fi speakers. The more profitable speakers will be placed in a position in the room, where they sound better, etc.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:06 PM   #10
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FX1 vs H1 , clear sharpness diff

I found this web page. Very clear difference, with blow up of the
detail. H1 = looks 2x the resolution , in this example. Hands down.

http://www.eidomedia.com/test/out_test.htm

-Les

Last edited by Les Dit; January 4th, 2006 at 11:42 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #11
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You mean XL H1, not Z1, right?

I don't know if it's twice the resolution. Are there more pixels in the H1 than the FX1/Z1?

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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:42 PM   #12
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Yes, I just corrected the post. It's getting hard to keep track !

The H1 does have 2X detail, in this unknown quality test sample .
Simple to test:
Resize H1 clip to 50 % size ( destroys it's resolution to 1/2 res )
Rezise it back up to original size. ( you have filtered out the original res to 1/2 res on the H1 clip )

It *still* looks better than that Sony clip!
Try it.

-Les
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath McKnight
You mean XL H1, not Z1, right?

I don't know if it's twice the resolution. Are there more pixels in the H1 than the FX1/Z1?

heath
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Old January 5th, 2006, 12:36 AM   #13
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I didn't doubt it, but I haven't looked at the H1 specs in a while. I'm going to be getting my hands on one soon for tests. Hope the lens is better than what I've worked with in the past (Canon-speaking), but Canon's HD lenses are NICE. I used a nice one with an F900 last year and it smoked!

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Old January 5th, 2006, 03:43 AM   #14
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kenji which store was it at?? looks like a denki store like bic, I wanna touch the XL-H1
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Old January 5th, 2006, 03:49 AM   #15
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Kenji...
Akihabar yodobashi ne? ok I'm goin to look...domo
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