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Old October 12th, 2006, 01:34 PM   #16
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I usually do not buy items based on price. I am a quick learner. I have outgrown like five different digital camera's in like one year. First I had a simple Kodak camera, then a Canon Ixxus, then a Sony F-727 then a Nikon D70 SLR.I sold the D70 because I wanted to do more then the machine could do. But as I wanted to become a filmmaker, I bought a Sony HDR-HC1 for the money.

I had that camera for like 8 months. At that moment, I wanted to do things I could not do so I bought XLR microphones with adapter, a Spider Brace etcetera. Now I want a camera that will not limit my creativity.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 01:49 PM   #17
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But it's easier to give a maximum budget, otherwise people can recommend cameras going from 200 dollars to 200.000 dollars...
An estimate would make things easier.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 04:47 PM   #18
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Anywhere between $ 3000 - 10.000.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 06:39 PM   #19
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Well,

you don't really need the interchangible lens system of the XL H1 nor the extra jacks from the XH G1, so a XH A1 would be a good choice.

For moviemaking, you shouldn't need autofocus, so a JVC could do well too.
And the V1 of Sony looks pretty promising, but it specs are very close to the Canon XH A1, which is cheaper.
The HVX has pretty low resolution chips, but has a filmic image, but it also has the very expensive p2 media, what you already pointed out yourself.
And the FX1 and Z1 from Sony aren't that good for filmmaking in comparison with the other ones.

All the extra budget could go to lights, audio, maybe even books,...
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Old October 12th, 2006, 06:45 PM   #20
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Hi Floris

I think there can be a tendency to overly hung up on the technology when starting out in film making. At your budget whatever camera you choose will in some way be deficient, in its controls, low light or some other factor. There is no perfect camera at any budget really. I know that doesn't help you choose a camera but it is true!

I have just finished writing two scripts and want to shoot them and I am in a similar position to you trying to choose one of the low budget HD cameras to shoot these films with. You know, we are spoilt for choice which is the real problem. I have narrowed the choice down to two cameras; the Canon XH-a1 or the Sony HVR-V1E.

I understand from another thread you can't really wait for the Sony as you want to get making films. If that is still the case I can't see any reason not to order yourself the Canon XH-A1 or G1. I simply do not see another current camera coming close to them. The XL-H1 will give you similar results for more cash; the JVCs only record 25p where as the Canons record 50i and 25p and the Sony Z1's picture quality is not up to the standard of the Canons for my money.

If the Sony HVR-V1 had not been announced there is no question I would have pre-ordered the Canon XH-A1 by now. It ticks every box, good low light, nice compact design, generously wide angled lens, huge control over the image and the camera really does capture HD images.

The reason I am waiting to see the Sony V1 is for its ability to handle a wide dynamic range which is the only thing that I can think of that it might improve on the Canon. I might get to December and realise I should have bought the Canon a month earlier! :)

Find yourself a good dealer and go check out the cameras. A good dealer should help you come to the right decision.

All the best

TT

p.s. don't get hung up on the 24p thing. It's dead easy to go from 25p to film without complicating matters worrying about 24p.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 06:54 PM   #21
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Looks like we are in the same league. I narrowed it down quite a bit. Basicallly it will come down to the Canon XH-A1 or the Sony HVR-V1E. So I will have to wait till probarbly November for the reviews on those camera's to arrive.

Another option is the JVC GY-HD200. It is a new camera for JVC with 720p/24, 720p/25, 720p/60 and 720p/50. So much better then the GY-HD100/110. The price will be around $8000. I am not sure if that's with or without lens. But I like the idea of being able to buy other lenses in the future. My only problem is that it might be too big to use conveniently in all situations, and the other one is that it does not have auto-focus in case I will shoot weddings / events.

The HVX-200 is definately not an option anymore. The same goes for the XL-H1.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 07:50 PM   #22
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Much research is a good thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floris van Eck
The JVC is a no go as it lacks auto-focus, which for events/weddings is not a very good thing. You must get it right the first time.
But beyond that it looks like you are rushing into a few unknowns. Citing consumer features like this and immediately condemning the choice might be a mistake. No JVC schill here. 3 Canons. All have their A/F function disabled.

Art is one thing, but experience is still a hot commodity. Your reference to getting it right at a wedding by using auto-focus is perfectly incorrect.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 09:01 PM   #23
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Funny, I also am in the same boat...

If I had to buy right now based on specs, I'd go this way:
HVX200 first then it's a tie between Canon A1 and Sony V1, and I'm leaning towards the Canon a little more. I don't like JVC, they look like a good buy,but we used to use JVC about 5 years ago and they would always break down.

The reason I choose the HVX over the other 2 is because of the following:
-over/under crank feature
DVCPro50 (4:2:2) SD (this cam offers more res options)

The Canon and Sony look nice, but I'd wait to actually see them or at least read a good review. Here this guy runs the Sony threw some extreme testing:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomon...ssue/7170.html

The reason why I have not picked up an HVX yet, is I'm waiting a couple of months to see if Panny does release something and to see how AVCHD will affect any future it may have. Besides, I also want to see what the NLE's do to support editing HD. HP/Intel is releasing new QUAD-core chips.
http://news.com.com/2061-10791_3-612...5459&subj=news
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Old October 12th, 2006, 10:55 PM   #24
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re pro gear:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floris van Eck
Chuck, can you explain that a little bit further. What kind of equipment do you mean and what are the expected costs of that equipment?
Find a television broadcast equipment dealer -- they won't be a retail store -- and ask about used eng gear. You might be able to put together a dvcam outfit under $10k. You probably don't want beta gear, the decks and capture cards will cost too much. But some dvcam bodies do firewire. Do a search for "sony dsr dvcam camera" and look at 300, 400 and 500-series cameras for an idea.

Research carefully, though -- this is the land of $2000 batteries we're talking. Everything's sold a la carte. The learning curve will be steep and everything's manual and the viewfinders are black & white. Rent some pro gear locally, if you can. Sounds like your cup of tea.

Oh, I'll second the comment about not using autofocus at important events -- it'll bite you badly when you least expect it.

But don't spend so much time worrying about the camera -- get something and learn how to use it. Experience is more important than the camera.
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Old October 13th, 2006, 04:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
But don't spend so much time worrying about the camera -- get something and learn how to use it. Experience is more important than the camera.
I totally agree. But still, like I learned with my digital camera (Nikon D70), you are buying into a system. You buy batteries, adapters, cables etcetera. You can sell them with the camera, but it is easier to buy the right system. One thing for example is that I think Sony has a better system. They have multipe camera's (FX-1, Z1, V1, V7 that are all using the same batteries). It is the same with Canon of course, but Canon has only three models (two basically).

So the decision will most likely be between the Sony and the Canon. The JVC will likely be too advanced for me. But at the other hand, that will force you to learn it the right way... instead of learning how to work with a consumer type camera, and need to learn everything all over again when you switch to the professional type of camera (the ones with manual focus lenses) etc.
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Old October 13th, 2006, 09:42 PM   #26
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The JVC won't be too advanced if you outgrew your HC-1 and your D70, your a fast learner. get your hands on all the cameras your thinking about and check them out that way. Its the only way to really get what you want
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Old October 14th, 2006, 12:07 PM   #27
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Floris,

First off, go and watch these 2 clips, and then come back here.

http://www.davidcarstens.com/portfol...memberdemo.mov

http://www.midnight-film.com/ (and select trailer high definition).


clip 1 : Was shot with stock HVX 200 with 35mm adapter.

clip 2: Was shot with stock HVX 200.

After this thread of mine, you will get people giving you a bunch of numbers on how the HVX 200 is this and that. Keep in mind that after all being said and done, Panasonic produces the most film like images in prosumer camcorders (dvx100b and Hvx200). Everybody in the industry is trying to emulate Panasonic.

People can brag about specifications this and that, but in the end, it the final pictures on the screen that counts and speaks the most. If you are into narrative short Film making and documentary, IMO you cannot do wrong with the HVX 200.

In narrative film, you need Lighting, PERIOD and depending on what kind of documentary you are doing, you also need Lighting (mostly natural outside lighting). Unless you are doing a lot of run and gun and weddings, you shouldnt worry much about low light capability.

In narrative film, you rarely shoot for 30 minutes straight without a need to change cam angle, lighting, costume ....etc. Therefore, P2 should not present much of a problem. This coming spring, panasonic is sheduled to released 16 gig P2 card. Or, you can just get an external HDD for the HVX 200.

Videography is really fun and there is tons of stuff to be learned. I hope you have budget more money for all the accessories. Not to scare you or anything but for good narrative short film, consider the following.

a) A good tripod (at least a cartoni focus)
b) A good Mic (at least AT4073A for outdoors and Oktava MK-12 for indoors)
c) Wind pro, boom pole, Zep for (b)
d) A good pre-mixer (at least SD 302) and maybe an external recorder
e) Lighting (Kino, Arri or Mole) and grips
f) A Crane
g) A Dolly
h) A Stabilizer (at least a steadicam merlin)
i) Redrock m35 with plate
j) A Follow Focus
k) A Matte Box
l) An External Monitor
m) If you do not go tapeless with HDD, you need a cheap camcorder to be used as a deck.
n) ScreenPlay Writing, Editing Skills, Audio Skills, Lighting Skills, Special Effect Skills, 3D animation, Green Screening ...etc.

So, there, I doubt you will get bored with videography anytime soon. in Fact I have Seen ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT DROPPED videography for photography.

Good Luck and Have Fun !
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Old October 15th, 2006, 12:56 AM   #28
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That footage was nice.
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Old October 15th, 2006, 10:35 PM   #29
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I agree that you should not count out the HD-100/110/200/250. Interchangeable lens, pro layout, and an alias free non pixel shifted image. If you want to be a filmmaker, it simply leaves all other progressive shooting cams in the dust for the price. Go check out some clips.
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Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 11:20 AM   #30
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I was ready to buy the A1. But the V1 was announced. I really was close to a DVX100 too, but just can't pull the trigger. I don't need a camera now so I might as well wait and see the reviews on the A1 and the V1. Both look pretty good.
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