Migration to HDV advice, I have max a 10000$ budget at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > High Definition Video Acquisition > General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition

General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition
Topics about HD production.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 9th, 2007, 01:22 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
Migration to HDV advice, I have max a 10000$ budget

Hi, Iīm new at this forum and very happy to share with you people.

I work freelance as cameraman and editor in events, institutionals, videoclips, and also producing my own socio-cultural documentaries (Africa, South and Central America). I work with SD (Sony PD150, VX2000, HC90) with d-core opteron 280 workstation, 2G RAM with Adobe Production Suite.

I now have the possibility of spending a maximum of 10000$ to migrate to HDV and I pretend to get the best solution within my limited (though interesting) budget. I will follow these parameters for my purchasing decisions:

Camcorders: break my loyalty to Sony and change to Canon (XH A1 + HV20 -in april). Reasons: price, 25F (im in PAL land) and 25P, possibility of matching with future adquisition of XH L1 (intercheangable lenses). The other option was JVC, but i prefer 1080i (in the Canon F or P flavor) than 720P, and IMO the A1 is better size suited for docusī shooting

Sound: Audio Technica AT897 (boom or attached to the camera) + Shure SM58 (interviews)

Editing and Post workstation: I will get another opteron and 2 more G RAM. also i will build a RAID 0 with 4 SATAs of 500GB each. (I work mostly with outdoor footage and intensive color correction, only sporadic keying and special FX)

I would appreciate your advice in some issues that iīm still not sure:

1) Does my camcorder decision sound logic for my needs?
2) Is my mics decision correct?
3) I would also need 2 wireless lavalier mics, UHF or VHF? suggestions for around 200$ each?
4) best SATA-PCI X card (i have a Tyan Thunder S2895 mobo, with already 3 SATA disks with no array) .
5) best ingest-edit-post workflow for Premiere Pro / After FX. Im interested in the possibility of using 4:2:2 10 bits codecs (Cineform Aspect / Prospect / Blackmagic Intensity / Decklink HD Studio) in other words, i should only attach to Cineformīs codec solution (via firewire) or would be it be better to ingest through HDMI via the HV20 (or component through the A1) and use the Motion JPEG codec to achieve the "virtually loseless" and bigger color space solution for my footage?

Thanks in advance!

Hernan
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2007, 04:34 PM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 1,961
5. Once you have recorded to HDV, the compression is done. Stick with firewire.

1. For PAL land, that camera choice looks very nice.

2. I have worked with the AT4073a and it sounded very nice for about the same money. I believe I listened to some online comparison clips and the 4073 still seemed great compared to anything in it's price range. I am not the authority, but take a second look at the audio forum in case I am right.

3. Don't buy $200 lav mics. They will give you problems. Save your money until you can get a $500 UHF system like the Sennheisers.

I don't know what operating system you use, but I think you may be limited to 2Gig total with Windows unless you go to the 64-bit version. If you already have 2Gig of RAM, you may be at the max. Another Opeteron, if you have a single chip in a dual-chip motherboard is a sensible way to go. If you have a slower Opteron, you may consider replacing it with two faster chips as the price has fallen on Opterons. Check to see if your applications can use 4 cores before you buy two dualcore Opterons. Two 2.4Ghz single-core 940-pin Opterons will total less than $450 in the U.S. and that would be a fast system.
Marcus Marchesseault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2007, 09:06 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
Thanks Marcus for your clear and straight answer!

But i still don t get some details. I hope you can help me:
Quote:
Once you have recorded to HDV, the compression is done. Stick with firewire.
That i understand, but with Intensity/Decklink HD dont i gain more options to encode the footage with wavelet codecs than just stick only with Cineform (hoping that Cineform will be supported by Blackmagic sooner or later) and also the possibility to record uncompressed in studio environment?
And other point ive just remembered, Cineform is more PC focused and Sheervideo more MAC, or im wrong?
Quote:
I don't know what operating system you use, but I think you may be limited to 2Gig total with Windows unless you go to the 64-bit version. If you already have 2Gig of RAM, you may be at the max.
I use XP 32 bit, but (and this i really dont know...) can i use premiere pro 2 and after effects 7 (and the rest of the suite + Photoshop and Illustrator) in XP 64bits?
Quote:
Check to see if your applications can use 4 cores before you buy two dualcore Opterons.
Do you know if Adobe Suite works with 4 cores? (anyway i will do a careful research about his two last questions)

Thanks again! And if somebody there can recommend some good SATA-PCI X card, i would appreciate it very much. Loving this forum!!
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2007, 12:35 AM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 1,961
Your questions have exceeded my knowledge. I have doubts about uncompressed, quadcores with some applications, and Windows 64-bit. I'm guessing everyone would have switched already if application support was there. Actually, I can't say for sure, but I think Vegas might support the most cores at quadcore. Keep checking, but the multi-core software has been a painfully slow process. There have been application releases that said they supported dual systems but the render times were the same as single-core machines. Welcome to the cutting edge.

BTW, Vegas can now edit in the native mpeg2 format of the HDV standard. A friend of mine cut a short movie we shot recently in the native mpeg format and the DVD looked fine. I had to think about it when I viewed it on my computer to see if it was an HD or SD video. It was a standard SD DVD but it looked professionally produced. As the director of photography, you would think I would immediately recognize if my footage had been downsampled. Of course, if you are doing lots of layers and such, an intermediate codec might be nice. Gabe edited in native mpeg due to time constraints. Can PP edit in native mpeg?

I feel it is my duty to repeat my warning about cheap lav mics. In that, I am an authority. A bad lav during a live event can ruin your month!
Marcus Marchesseault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
Thanks again Marcus, you´ve helped me in my search!

Anyone please with some experience with Decklink Intensity or Decklink HD that could explain me if they are the way to get the best quality of HDV footage from a Canon A1 (by HDMI -with HV20 - or component)?

Or i just stick to firewire and Cineform´s Aspect or Prospect?

And any SATA PCI X card recommended to build a RAID 0 array?

H
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2007, 01:06 PM   #6
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 15
i am actually in email conversation with canon now regarding XH A1 and the HV20. i asked about capturing uncompressed HD and the hdv gets recorded to tape. they told me that the only options for uncompressed hd is the XL H1 or the XH G1 - and i believe that it does not record it to tape, only to an extrnal device. below is the contents of the email. i hope it helps:
---------------

'The HDMI output will still give you HDV content. The video information is being compressed in camera before it gets to the HDMI port. So, even though the card you mentioned can transfer full HD information, the camera won't have the full information available.

If you are interested in getting an uncompressed HD signal, you might consider our XL H1 or the XH G1. Both of these cameras have HD-SDI outputs that would allow you to transfer full uncompressed HD to your recording location.

I hope that helps. Please let us know if you have any other questions about our HD cameras. '
-----------------
__________________
Adam Clark
Trick Digital
www.trickdigital.com
Adam Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2007, 02:12 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
what about component out?

Hi Adam, and thanks for the reply.

If the HDMI of the HV20 is not the solution for uncompressed recording, do u know if the component out of both the XH A1 and the HV20 give this possibility?

In case that yes, what workflow would u suggest?

Thanks in advance

Hernan
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2007, 06:07 PM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 67
I think the message by Canon is implying that the footage is compressed to HDV before reaching any output be it HDMI or component (why doesn't XHA1 have HDMI? :( )

Maybe someone can ask Canon again just to be sure
Chan Ee Jien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2007, 03:12 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pinellas Park
Posts: 232
I'm interested in your decision to go with the A1 and HV20 rather than the Sony V1 and HC7.

Anyway, regarding Canon, the company wants professionals to spend the big bucks to get uncompressed high definition out, so they really don't market the component out of the A1. On the consumer side, HDMI seems to be a big deal. Of course, SDI-HD out (XLH1 and XHG1) is a better option than component or HDMI. The HDMI out of the HV20 and component out of the A1 reportedly are before HDV compression, like Sony's HC7 and V1 which converts to HDV after the component and HDMI outputs. As with the Sonys', it is reported the resolution is converted to 1440 x 1080i before component or HDMI output, so you're not getting full HD, but it's close and with 4:2:2 color sampling.

Why Sony rather than Canon?

Oddly enough Canon has used their native 1920 x 1080 CMOS sensor in their consumer HV20 model and native 1440 (H pixel shift to 1920) x 1080 interlace CCDs in the A1. The A1 only has component out, so no HDMI. The HV20 does not have a LANC control jack. Audio options do not offer any way to split the line/mic channels.

Sony, on the other hand, uses progressive 960 x 1080 CMOS sensors. It achieves 1920 x 1080 through horizontal pixel shift. It adds HDMI out. It has better audio options, like seperate mic/line for each channel. The HC7 has a higher resolution CMOS than the HV20 and has LANC control. Since both Sonys use CMOS sensors, the look should be similar with, obviously, the V1 looking better.

The only advantage I see that the HV20 holds over the HC7 is 24P mode. I don't know if that's a big deal to you or not.

If Canon came out with a three chip professional model like the XHA1 with the same CMOS sensors as the HV20, adding HDMI out, audio options similar to the Sony V1, a better and bigger LCD monitor with underscan, still retaining a LANC control jack, then we would have something. Maybe we will hear more at NAB.
John Bosco Jr. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:35 AM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 1,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hernan Vilchez View Post

And any SATA PCI X card recommended to build a RAID 0 array?
The Areca ARC SATA Raid controllers are the Ferrari's from the Formula One. The 11xx range is for PCI-X, the 12xx range is for PCI-e.

You can get them with 4, 8, 12 or 16 connectors. I would opt for the 1220 with 8 connectors, even if you only use 4 at the moment. It gives you room to grow and is less expensive than ending up with two cards or exchanging one for a new one with more connectors. It also pays to increase the cache memory to 1 GB and get the BBM (battery back-up module).

You could consider one more disk and instead of an AID0 (no R for redundancy, since that is the nature of plain striping) use a Raid5. Effectively you will have the same storage capacity but you WILL have redundancy to recover from disk failures without losing all your data.
Harm Millaard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:33 AM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard View Post
The Areca ARC SATA Raid controllers are the Ferrari's from the Formula One. The 11xx range is for PCI-X, the 12xx range is for PCI-e.
Harm, my system consists of a dualcore AMD Opteron 280 with a Tyan Thunder mobo. In the reviews thay talk about Intel adapter... im not an expert on this issues, would u think i have any compatibility problems?

And regarding the Sony V1+HC7 vs Canon A1+HV20 dilemma, im full of info but still in doubts... i summarize my needs to those who hopefully want to help me in my decision:

1. Mostly run n gun documentary and event shooting jobs
2. Big wish of getting rid of deinterlacing tasks, so I definetely prefer progressive or F mode in both cameras
3. Best low light performance needed
4. Would like to have the option of uncompressed HD out (bypassing HDV compression) for posssible future portable uncompressed HDD recording (or for eventual studio shootings)
5. Manual access for WB, shutter speed, gain (on the big models)
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2007, 10:11 AM   #12
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 1,832
I have never used AMD CPU's so I can't guarantee it, but it seems logical that compatibility only depends on the slots, not on the CPU. Best to ask a reputable dealer or Areca.

For run n gun docu's and events I would go for the camera that to you feels the most steady. That is a highly personal taste, but chances are you will do a lot of shooting without a tripod, so balance and steadiness is an important factor. Both the V1 and the A1 are superb cameras in their price range and offer all the manual settings you want. Try them out and decide which one feels best for you.

Be aware that the V1 seems to have some problems with progressive shots at least in PAL land for 25P. There have been numerous reports about that, do a search and will find lots of info on that topic. It caused Sony to stop delivery of the V1 in Europe and I haven't heard that the problem has been solved.
Harm Millaard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2007, 02:21 PM   #13
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard View Post
Be aware that the V1 seems to have some problems with progressive shots at least in PAL land for 25P. There have been numerous reports about that, do a search and will find lots of info on that topic. It caused Sony to stop delivery of the V1 in Europe and I haven't heard that the problem has been solved.
Thanks a lot Harm! And yes i know about this problem, thats why i first decided to go for the Canon couple. But i havenīt read anything else about this PAL land failure.

Can anybody assure that the V1 is working fine in run n gun shooting style in 25P?

Thanks in advance!
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2007, 07:45 AM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northampton, England
Posts: 500
As far as A1 vs V1 for run-and-gun style, unfortunately it's swings-and-roundabouts with no clear winner.

The A1 has a considerably more useful lens range (wider) and there are more manual controls on physical switches on the body. But it's missing some pretty crucial things that are available on the V1 - like on-the-fly exposure compensation in auto exposure mode, and simultanious peaking and zebras (and histogram!)

CMOS vs CCD makes very little (real) difference to the amount of dynamic range available.

Personally I think the image from the A1 is considerably nicer than the V1 image. The A1 noise is more "organic" and film-like, whereas the V1 noise is less "grainy" but more "swimmy". But that just makes the decision even harder.

For style of operation I'd go with the V1. But for lens range and image - the A1...

And in the interest of disclosure - I have an A1. ;-)
__________________
Alex
Alex Leith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2007, 08:25 PM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 135
component out and monitoring the A1

Thanks Alex! I will go for the A1. 2 questions about your setup:

1. do u know if the component out of the A1 can bypass the HDV compression?
2. what type of monitor you have for previewing full HD while capturing/editing at your studio?
Hernan Vilchez is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > High Definition Video Acquisition > General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:41 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network