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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:17 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw View Post
Good point about the variable bit rate, but even there I would think the extra overhead yields better results than fixed-rate HDV. Has there been any indication whether the XDCAM EX will support the 50 Mbps recording mode?



As someone else noted, I was referring to the commonly used option of recording in the 720/24pn mode, which is only 40 Mbps. The option to use a higher bit rate is good, but impractical and unnecessary for some purposes.



The widescreen SD options on the HVX200 are potentially useful, but even for those P2 memory card prices are a problem. This is what makes the XDCAM EX interesting: it promises high-quality flash-based recording using affordable non-proprietary memory cards.



Sony's promising 800 Mbps throughput on a 2.5 Gbps bus, which sounds feasible. SanDisk is already shipping CF cards with read/write speeds of 320 Mbps (40 MB/sec), or several times the required speed for recording XDCAM HD.
Regarding the Panny HVX 200, that's Fine, but that's only one mode; I was speaking in general about the camera. You should have specified "in 24pn mode" in your original post. Regarding XD Cam, I said the 35mb/s variable mode yielded better results than HDV: "...a tad better than HDV."

No mention of the 50mb/s mode on xdcam ex; however, they might want to throw that in because I have a sneaking feeling that Panasonic is going to lay a bomb on Sony with an under $10k camera with more robust chips and the addition of their new AVC-Intra codec, the 50mb/s one. No official news, just a feeling.

What is promised and what is actually delivered as we have experienced can be entirely different. I'm taking a "wait and see" approach regarding the SxS cards. I guess it is hard for me to believe that the king of proprietary, Sony, would create something non-proprietary. That said; I am excited about the XDCam-Ex. If my budget allows, that's the camera I'm currently looking to buy. Of course, who knows? Maybe a new offering from Panasonic or Canon will peak my interest. You gotta love technology.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 09:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr. View Post
You should have specified "in 24pn mode" in your original post.
I could have been clearer about that, but anyone familiar with the HVX200 should know what I meant in my earlier post. The main point here is that the XDCAM EX has the potential to deliver excellent HD footage at a fairly reasonable price, and its recording bit rate isn't likely to be a problem for many users. Agreed though that it would be nice to have a 50 Mbps option on the camera, which should be technologically feasible.

Quote:
No mention of the 50mb/s mode on xdcam ex; however, they might want to throw that in because I have a sneaking feeling that Panasonic is going to lay a bomb on Sony with an under $10k camera with more robust chips and the addition of their new AVC-Intra codec, the 50mb/s one.
That would be a fine example of competition at work, especially if Panasonic also ditches P2 in favor of non-proprietary memory. We'll see...

Quote:
I'm taking a "wait and see" approach regarding the SxS cards. I guess it is hard for me to believe that the king of proprietary, Sony, would create something non-proprietary.
Good point. And even if SxS isn't specifically proprietary it could be a nuisance to keep corresponding card readers handy, but hopefully those won't be too expensive.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:11 PM   #33
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Ok, here's my take on *THE* HD camera to get (sub $10k), by category, since you often need a different tool for a different job, and there isn't one camera that does everything best. Because these are my personal pics, they are to be treated as gospel and are not up for debate! ;)

ENG: Any JVC PROHD camera
It has the right ergonomics for the job, and you will blend in with real live professionals.

Sports: Canon XLH1 Best zoom/stabilization combo, and sharp. Or JVC HD200, lacks IS and zoom, but has 60p mode.

Weddings: Sony. Has anyone ever beaten a Sony for low light performance?

Nature: Canon XLH1 See above + only affordable wide angle lens in this range.

Indie Film: Panasonic HVX200 or JVC HD200. Arguably the most filmish look, both can overcrank, HD200 has one edge with being able to flip the picture from a 35mm adapter. HVX200 has an edge with DVCPRO HD, but limited storage.

Documentary: Sony. Low light wins again.

Studio: JVC HD250 or Canon XLH1 for output options.

Best Bang For The Buck: Canon XHA1

Personal home use: Canon HV20 seems unstoppable at this point.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:16 PM   #34
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Excellent post Dylan and I think you pretty much nailed it.

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Old May 22nd, 2007, 01:54 PM   #35
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Dylan's list is the way to start thinking about which under10K camera you can buy today. You put it simple, Dylan.

I've been away of this great forum for a long while, when the HVX200 was coming out. I can't believe in all this time, no external, dockable hardrive has appeared for recording something better than HDV out of the Canons with HD out.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 12:51 AM   #36
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The other way to look at it is to review tests that determine TVlines resolution. The actual format, be it 720p or 1080i are still restricted to a certain amount of actual resolution or detail determined upon resolution charts. DV.com has up to this point done the most elaborate cross cam chart comparissons. Under $10,000 cam award goes to the Canon HD cams in its interlaced mode. As far as progessive mode goes it is the 720p JVC's that hold the crown despite what many would assume a a lesser 720p format, besting the Canons consideably. These charts do not consider the advantage of the 720p60 modes of the newer JVC cams as far as high motion resolution.
The bottom line is that there is far more to the eqation then "big" numbers, despite what many here are trying to promote.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 01:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr. View Post
First the XD Cam's 35mb/s codec is variable; it averages 26 mb/s. The 50mb/s XD Cam codec will be better. In any case the XD cam's codec is a tad bit better than HDV
It may average 26 or more depending on scene complexity. This is part of the 'magic' in the XDCAM HD codec at 35mb VBR. It can also go slightly above 35 mb if the scene calls for it. The bits are used very efficiently and this is why it achieves PQ that is more than a 'tad' better than HDV.

Sorry that you have such a distaste for long gop, but it's very efficient and a very mature technology that modern encoder chips are able to wring a lot of performance out of. Modern NLE systems know how to deal with MPEG Long GOP whereas this was not the case a few years ago.

-gb-
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 09:15 AM   #38
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I'm also very curious to see what the Red guys do with their proposed "pocket professional" camera. Probably a year or more away, though...
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 07:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Ok, here's my take on *THE* HD camera to get (sub $10k), by category, since you often need a different tool for a different job, and there isn't one camera that does everything best. Because these are my personal pics, they are to be treated as gospel and are not up for debate! ;)

ENG: Any JVC PROHD camera
It has the right ergonomics for the job, and you will blend in with real live professionals.

Sports: Canon XLH1 Best zoom/stabilization combo, and sharp.

Weddings: Sony. Has anyone ever beaten a Sony for low light performance?

Nature: Canon XLH1 See above + only affordable wide angle lens in this range.

Indie Film: Panasonic HVX200 or JVC HD200. Arguably the most filmish look, both can overcrank, HD200 has one edge with being able to flip the picture from a 35mm adapter. HVX200 has an edge with DVCPRO HD, but limited storage.

Documentary: Sony. Low light wins again.

Studio: JVC HD250 or Canon XLH1 for output options.

Serious Amateur: Canon XHA1. Best bang for the buck.

Personal home use: Canon HV20 seems unstoppable at this point.
When you say Sony wins low light are you saying just in general? I'm just curious b/c I've read that the V1U's low light seems to fall short of the XH-A1. Just a thought but when you bring in the Z1 into the picture then thats what your talking about? Can anyone comment on the HDV format in general and shoot fast motion cars and surfing? That my target project areas, and theres a ton of knowledge on here. Haven't gotten a clear answer weather I should wait on the HDV format and go solid state got get around the GOP issue. If I do go HDV its A1 all the way.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mike Gorski View Post
Can anyone comment on the HDV format in general and shoot fast motion cars and surfing?
Not a comment on HDV, but on the camera.

For surfing you'll want a long lens and great image stabilization if you are shooting from the shore. So Canon.

If you are shooting from the water, I'd look for something that has an affordable waterproof case with a wide angle adapter, and overcrank abilities. So HVX200.

For cars, do you mean car shows or racing? If racing, then long lens and IS, so Canon. If car shows, pretty much anything goes.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 09:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Not a comment on HDV, but on the camera.

For surfing you'll want a long lens and great image stabilization if you are shooting from the shore. So Canon.

If you are shooting from the water, I'd look for something that has an affordable waterproof case with a wide angle adapter, and overcrank abilities. So HVX200.

For cars, do you mean car shows or racing? If racing, then long lens and IS, so Canon. If car shows, pretty much anything goes.
What about a camera for shooting in Las Vegas? What is your recommendation there, Dylan? (snicker)

-gb-
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 09:58 PM   #42
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What about a camera for shooting in Las Vegas? What is your recommendation there, Dylan? (snicker)

-gb-
Heh heh.... I can't answer this question without breaking The Vegas Rule. What happens in Vegas...

Oh yeah, thanks for the sample XDCAM EX, I'll put it on my list of best cameras as soon as I'm done testing it. ;)
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 10:33 PM   #43
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The camera to get for me

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Originally Posted by Tyson Persall View Post
So far there has not been any one new "semi-pro" level (or prosumer) HD, HDV camera produced that everyone got excited for. And when I say excited, I mean like the talk that surrounded the original DVX100 when it first came out.

There are a bunch of HDV cams out there but not one that really stands out on the market as the leader. Granted, that might be proper economics in this field operating as they should... I guess if the V1E was the only HDV camera on the market everyone would talk about the V1E as the "the camera to get". That's what ive been waiting for; A "the camera to get" to come out... but it hasn't happened. Or maybe the problem is, that lots of the new HDV cameras are good but the fact that the market is saturated with lots of choices the majority of shooters are not getting behind any one model and really pushing it as "the best cam out there". However for me, I am apprehensive to make a decision when there isn't a clear winner. Before the DVX100 the XL1 was the top presumer cam. - or maybe the VX200. But now a days there is no one market leader.

I bring this up because< I want there to be a "the camera to get". So I can rest assured I am making the right choice. Do you think that will ever happen -again? Or will it always be as it is now -with lots of choices making the decision harder?

Note: In this thread I'm not referring to the above $10 grand cameras as they are out of our price range as average vidographers and independent film makers.
I think the camera "to get" is the one that Sony will be releasing end of this year that uses 1/2" sensors and uses express cards to record in dvcam or some variant of it. I read that it will go for about U$8K, maybe slightly less once it stabilizes in the market.

Being 1/2" in sensor size, hopefully, it will be close if not be the same as the VX and PD family in low light. For sure it will be better than today's FX1/FX7 or Z1/V1 copies in terms of low light. And using expresscards, now frees the shooter from the shackles of tape.

With it's size, weight, and handling, it will appeal to both events/wedding shooters, as well as journalists, or even indies. Of course, not everyone will be happy with the bitrate in encoding or in other aspects, but this is probably why it is positioned in this price point.

If one can wait, this may be the camera that is "to get." Otherwise, most of us already know the compromises that we go through if we get a panny, sony, canon, or jvc with today's current lineup.

-Mel
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Old May 24th, 2007, 01:14 AM   #44
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I think the camera "to get" is the one that Sony will be releasing end of this year that uses 1/2" sensors and uses express cards to record in dvcam or some variant of it.
Sorry Mel, only cameras that are for sale on shelves right now are eligible. If you can't get it now, it ain't the camera to get. Otherwise, I'd argue that the wallet sized Red camera coming out three years from now is the camera to get. ;)
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Old May 24th, 2007, 10:21 AM   #45
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this "serious amateur" is making $10,000 next week for a shoot with a pair of canon A1s. i can hardly wait until i can move up another rung on the ladder! i wanna turn pro!
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