The "The camera to get"
So far there has not been any one new "semi-pro" level (or prosumer) HD, HDV camera produced that everyone got excited for. And when I say excited, I mean like the talk that surrounded the original DVX100 when it first came out.
There are a bunch of HDV cams out there but not one that really stands out on the market as the leader. Granted, that might be proper economics in this field operating as they should... I guess if the V1E was the only HDV camera on the market everyone would talk about the V1E as the "the camera to get". That's what ive been waiting for; A "the camera to get" to come out... but it hasn't happened. Or maybe the problem is, that lots of the new HDV cameras are good but the fact that the market is saturated with lots of choices the majority of shooters are not getting behind any one model and really pushing it as "the best cam out there". However for me, I am apprehensive to make a decision when there isn't a clear winner. Before the DVX100 the XL1 was the top presumer cam. - or maybe the VX200. But now a days there is no one market leader. I bring this up because< I want there to be a "the camera to get". So I can rest assured I am making the right choice. Do you think that will ever happen -again? Or will it always be as it is now -with lots of choices making the decision harder? Note: In this thread I'm not referring to the above $10 grand cameras as they are out of our price range as average vidographers and independent film makers. |
There never is, nor will ever be, an end-all solution, for any market regardless of product, service, or otherwise.
You can wait each day for a new product and never get anywhere, either, and that's just the way of business and development. That being stated, get what works for you for your specific applications. I love the Sony cameras - Z1U's, V1U's, etc. They are great if you know how to use manual features...but again, some hate them. I have no preference of them over the Canon's, JVC, or Panasonic simply because I have what works for me and have no reason to go elsewhere. |
Your right it's all about compromise.
All are good but all have issues. Sony V1 and Z1 are toyish, no real lens. JVC GY has shocking viewfinder,it's noisy, terrible battery life. Panasonic has those damn P2 cards and the lowest resolution CCDs. Canon H1 also has bad viewfinder and odd shoulder mount plus quirky lens. Both the Canon and JVC can be optioned up to make them more Pro but by the time you've spent that kind of money your up there with XD-Cam HD which shoots far superior quality than HDV could ever manage. |
I think the Canon XHA1 is getting some pretty good buzz. For the price, it's hard to beat right now...
<pleased A1 owner!> |
If there was the same price differential now as when I bought my V1, I might have become a Canon owner. There was almost no difference at the time, so I went for the V1 due to the better LCD, HDMI, and the lack of smear from CMOS. I also tend to like the Sony physical format since I was coming from a VX2000. I like the V1 more than the FX1 so I would say the V1, FX7, and Canon A1 are the "IT" cameras right now.
When flash is cheaper, the successor to the HVX200 will probably be a fantastic camera. 1080i/p with flash recording would be really nice. Still, the HVX makes some pretty pictures. The JVC cameras are very nice, but they are sized for a different audience than me. I like the small format. I think if the V1 had 1/3" chips that it would have blown everyone away. As it is, it's a bit of a toss-up between it and the Canon A1. For the price, the FX7 is going to be hard to beat. That's a lot of camera for that size and price. I think we are lucky to have so many different choices all with their own strengths. |
When I bought it, the XH-A1 and V1 were neck and neck on the boards it seemed for being the camera to get. They still are, often. I'm very pleased with my A1, but I've seen some spectacular footage from the V1. I'm sure I would have been happy either way, but to answer your question, at least at the time I think those two were the main contenders (at least back in January).
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I think the XDCAM eX (available by the end of this year?) just became the hot ticket.
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1/2" chips on the little Sony is the only spec that really means anything to me.
After using DVC-200s in sd, there is no way I would every go down in chip size for the jump to HD. |
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Depends on your market
If you want a full auto camera, and you are satisfied with HDV for all your production needs then I think that nothing under $5000 MSRP beats the Canon XH A1 (uh... the one without HD SDI outputs) Of course
Under $10,000 the hot ticket right now seems to be the XDCAM EX. I am not a fan of the XDCAM codec- at all. Its a gussied up version of HDV. Still fairly standard Expresscard media makes for a happy day. The prior title holder was the Panasonic HVX200, and it is still a great choice. The main reason it is falling off my radar is that it still has a vestigial DV tape transport and it uses Cardbus for its (much too expensive) P2 media. I am a huge fan of DVCPRO HD. It isn't "perfect" but its far better than HDV and XDCAM. I happen to love the XL-H1, but unless you need uncompressed HD-SDI or interchangeable lenses this camera is an also ran. That uncompressed HD-SDI is huge though. People are not aware that most HD camcorders send out fully processed scaled and compressed video over their HD-SDI. Yep, even Varicams and HDCAM. Puts the H1 and the XH-G1 up there if you have a lot of effects to do. Of course... this all means you get tethered to the video village. The next step up for me is the Panasonic HPX 500. 2/3" imagers and DVCPRO HD. This is my under $20000 camera. The downside? P2 workflow. Finally in my unlimited budget camera I pick RED ONE. The body can be had for "peanuts" at under $20000. The imager is mightily impressive, it can compete with film without caveat. You can put just about any glass you want on it, and oh the picture!! The future? I am anxious for more details on the RED Mini. Since they are lacking I'll make some up. I'm hoping for a 2/3" 2K version of the Mysterium imager with output to REDCODE RAW 2K or Pro Res on media of the users choice, including Expresscard flash based media. P2 is dead in its crib. It showed us the way, but its already history. If Panasonic can accept that, perhaps they will jump aboard Expresscard based flash media and call it P3. The HVX200 needs to lose the tape transport. That camera also needs an imager with higher resolution capable of driving DVCPRO HD to its limits. |
who cares about better cameras or "it" cameras? i want better DELIVERY SYSTEMS! i can shoot phenomenal footage with my pair of Canon A1s, but to what end? a 4'' web view? a down-rezzed SD DVD. an expensive HD DVD or Blu-Ray that is compatible with no one and nothing?
as it is, widespread delivery does not even support what we already can make in a $1000 camera package with an HV10 or HV20..... *rant over* |
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Compression issues aside, the XDCAM EX looks like "the" camera to beat for under $10K once it starts shipping, based on the proposed specifications. A lot of people see this as the answer to various drawbacks with other cameras in this price range, but of course we'll have to wait and see how it actually pans out. If you need something less expensive you'll have to accept more compromises, with the Sony HVR-Z1U and Canon XH-A1 arguably being the two favorites. And by the way, there's no single "prosumer" DV camera which gets top marks with everyone, but we should add the PD170 to the list as one of the contenders in that category. |
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And we do finally have the ability to make proper high-definition DVDs using reasonably affordable burners, discs and authoring software. The cost of doing that isn't any more than it was a few years to make SD DVDs, so the only problem now is waiting for consumers to buy the players. |
Why I hate HDV and XDCAM codecs
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As far as resolution goes DVCProHD has less pixel resolution in its "1080" modes. It uses lower (and less lossy) compression than either HDV or XDCAM. Combine these two facts and you have a wash as far as effective resolution. If you are looking at 720p I think the overall image quality (based on the CODEC) tips to DVCPro HD. As far as my distaste for HDV and XDCAM formats (and it is the format, not the cameras, that I am on about), it is really all about long GOP, which is a post nightmare. That's why we have/had all those intermediate codecs for HDV. If you want a specific example, HDV offlined on an Xpress Pro system that then had to be conformed on Media Composer for inclusion into a bigger project. The NLE's couldn't agree on the frame contents, as they recomposed the frames differently. At least that's what Avid said. We ended up having to adjust every edit point on the Media Composer. I had a similar issue between Final Cut and a DS Nitris with XDCAM. This time we had access to the FCP system, so we just exported the project as uncompressed HD on the SAN and imported that to the Avid. Then there is the fact that most edits require re-compression because you break the GOP. In fact HDV and XDCAM are a step backwards from DV in this regard. For either HDV or XDCAM my workflow usually starts with rendering it out to another codec, or even uncompressed. Usually I've chosen Avid DNxHD, but I think that will be changing to Pro Res as soon as I get my grubby paws on it, because I strongly prefer Final Cut Studio over Media Composer. Now that I am done abusing XDCAM as a format, I am going to repeat that I think that the XDCAM EX is one of the most interesting cameras coming down the pike. I plan on waiting for more details about the cameras before making any purchase. What I really want is a lossless codec like DNxHD or Pro Res going to solid state media. RED delivers the closest to this for now with REDCODE. Eventually we'll get there, and then I'll be genuinely excited about a workflow. Sorry for the longish rant. |
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Thats what I like to hear hahaha. The more video I see from that camcorder I'm impressed. Need to get my funds together ASAP!! |
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I still think that DVCPro HD is a cheap format to shoot, even at $0.83 per minute. It isn't as cheap as XDCAM ($0.67 per minute) but it is still dirt cheap compared to the rest of production expenses. As far as archival goes... these days the only thing I archive on tape is DV/HDV camera masters. Archive is too grand a word... I just store them. Everything else is archived using an IT workflow as data. Archival costs me the same, in terms of time, for that stuff regardless of what format I use. Quote:
Seeing the same footage (out via HD-SDI) from an XL-H1 in DNxHD, DVCPro HD and HDV... it pretty much made me want to kick the people who decided HDV was a good codec. XDCAM is essentially HDV when you are running 25Mbps. For it to be better you need to run it at 35 or 50 Mbps. (Check out the Texas Shootout results of the F350, by all accounts a superior camera. XDCAM at 25Mbps kept its results comparable with HDV.) I really want to impress upon people that some of the cameras we are shooting are better than HDV allows for. The XL-H1 and the XH-G1 definitely fall into this category, and you can test that yourself. I think other cameras in this price range would perform just as well if we could get to their signal before its compressed. Both 4:2:2 and motion quality matter, but intraframe compression (i.e. the lack of long GOP) is what earns the DVCPRO HD codec the "far better." I don't want to discuss it more, except to say that while I like this codec it is far from perfect. I am pretty excited about XDCAM EX. My take however is that the codec we'll see on the SxS drives is the same codec we presently get on Professional Disc. I think XDCAM is better than HDV, despite its flaws, and its pretty darn good for acquisition. But that is it. That means I have to consider a workflow that gets me out of XDCAM and into something more resilient. I am hoping that the FCP 6 mixed timeline will allow me to create a Pro Res sequence with XDCAM clips, and have any compositing on those clips done entirely in Pro Res space. Essentially I am hoping that I get "upconversion" to Pro Res for "free" on the timeline. I can't wait for a chance to test it and see what I get. I am such a geek, I'll probably have way too much fun. |
Canon XH-A1 - The more I use it the more I love it! Show the footage to people and sit back and listen to the "ooh!"s and "arh!!"s and gasps of amazment as they take in that HD magic.
The ONLY downside is that the body is made from plastic and it has a bit of a cheap feel to it,but that really is the onlt downside. |
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As far as editing goes, converting to an intraframe codec for that shouuldn't be hard to do these days, if you need the extra resiliency that offers. Edius will do what you described for editing in an intraframe codec space; hopefully FCP gets the same ability in the new version. I don't see any affordable way to record DVCProHD compared to HDV (at ~5-10 cents/minute), and the XDCAM EX will be more practical than the HVX200 in terms of solid state memory cost. All three formats will have their place for different reasons, along with AVCHD and any other new HD formats to come along. But getting back to the original topic of this thread, the XDCAM EX seems poised to become "the" camera to beat in the sub-$10K price range. People who don't like GOP-based recording will keep buying the HVX200, and those on a budget are mostly getting the Sony Z1U and Canon XH-A1. |
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You seem to have a few facts wrong. First the XD Cam's 35mb/s codec is variable; it averages 26 mb/s. The 50mb/s XD Cam codec will be better. In any case the XD cam's codec is a tad bit better than HDV, but a compression codec doesn't make the whole camera. Images from an XD cam look stunning, and with an HD-SDI jack, professional lens and 1/2 inch sensors it will be a great camera. The HVX 200 records in the DVCProHD Codec which is 100mb/s, not 40mb/s. Its downfall isn't the codec; it's the low-rez 1/3 inch chips. If Panasonic comes out with an HVX 250 or 300 with 1/2 inch sensors, then look out; there will be a heck of a war between Sony's and Panasonic's under $8G cameras. However, right now Panasonic does have the edge on SD by offering DVCPro50 and 25 on the HVX 200. I won't comment on P2 vs SxS because we don't know how SxS is going to perform. |
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Perhaps the reason that DVCPro100 was universally described as 'soft' compared to other 1/3" cameras was that the codec is permanently limited to 1280x1080 -- so a 4:2:2 chroma will better a 4:1:1 by some, but not as much as you'd guess: 640 chroma samples per line, as opposed to 480 ... but still only 1280 luma samples not 1920. And it is luma samples that will define 'resolution'.
GB |
I used to be really into the techni-babble about pixel numbers and such, but nowadays the yip-yap bores me. Never have I EVER been aware of any of my audiences having an issue with the picture quality of my FX-1, and this is on 40 foot screens after deinterlacing, 24p conversion, enough post-processing to take some of the punch out of the resolution. All I get is "wow what great quality!" I think the only way to properly select a camera is to view equatable test footage and decide for yourself. 2K seems to be the max resolution people notice, and most HD cameras these days come pretty close.
I had one guy tell me 720p has more resolution than 1080i. And I think he was right too, although I can't remember his explanation. So number specs for cameras mean nothing to me anymore. If you think camera quality has to do with making a good film, watch any of the Dogme95 movies. Especially "The Celebration." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogme95 |
Not sure what you mean at all by '2K seems to be the max resolution people notice ...' , but reading your post you maybe don't mean anything at all.
Not caring is one thing -- circulating false information entirely another. 'Good' films are made from good ideas -- but understanding the technology you work with is an indication of a good craftsman too. You can have one without the other, though I don't see why you wouldn't aim to have both. GB |
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But it's not as simple as that. The EBU is currently in favour of 720p FOR TRANSMISSION, but that is down to how the relative systems compress with limited bitrate transmission channels. The 1080 signal may look better in a lightly compressed form, but worse than 720 for a given allowed (low) bitrate. But all this assumes a 50 or 60Hz motion rendition, 720p/50 v 1080i/25, and ignores that a huge amount of production desires 24/25Hz rendition - "the film look". That the EBU seems to take no account of 1080p/25 may be one explanation why many broadcasters are preferring to go the 1080 route. |
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As things have strayed quite a bit off topic, back to the original post.
Right now, (as defined by what we can purchase AND take delivery on TODAY) the market seems to be quite saturated with great products, all of which carry the "but" suffix..... For 80% of situations, in the hands of 80% of users, any of today's cameras deliver more than could ever be asked. However, it all depends on context and market segment. Right now, we don't have any products that can really "grow" with users as their experience and skills improve. The closest to that concept would be the Canon cameras with their easy-mode dial. BUT (there's the suffix), when a user grows past the auto modes of any of these cameras, there is little true manual control. Only panasonic and jvc have figured out that an important part of focusing a camera is having repeatable marks (panasonic IS repeatable within reason). Only JVC has brought to market a usable focus assist feature to allow accurate manual focus. And therein lies the problem. By combining the feature sets of any number of cams on the market, we could have a fantastic, 99% camera. The problem of the market as dictated by current manufacturers is that they research their "segment" of the market, and deliver for a very narrow band of users. They basically tell us that people unable to spend $18,000 on a camera body (no lens, vf or battery) will be unable to shoot using the skills and controls of an 18,000 camera. And this is partially true. The majority of XH-A1'a or V1's that are sold will never have ANY of their manual controls used. We have become spoiled by the level of image performance we can now achieve at a very modest budget. We nickel and dime every camera when it comes to this many lines per millimeter, or this level of chroma noise, etc... In real world performance, it's a 0 sum game - when used properly, any of these units can deliver astounding pictures, and it all comes back to the user experience. So the decision on buying a camera TODAY lies in which features you're willing to live without. Want a real camera that shoots 24p at the expense of battery life? Go JVC. Want a fantastic compact that can shoot 24 frames, at the expense of terrible zoom performance? Go Canon XH. Want a tapeless workflow and flexible framerates at the expense of... expense? Go Panasonic HVX. Want HD-SDI and extreme telephoto options at the expense of ergonomics? Go Canon XL-H1 Want great image quality at the expense of awful manual controls? Go anything Sony. Want it all? Call it a quiver, a pallette, or whatever you'd like - the truth is that no camera can deliver EVERYTHING, you'll need a few to get 100% of your needs covered....i.e. rent! XDCAM-HD or HDX900's can deliver probably 90% of the time anything you could ever want...BUT they aren't small, cheap, or auto anything. So no, even the bigger cams can't do everything. If you're shopping today, make a grid on a spreadsheet or on paper and compare features side-by side and don't neglect the user interface. Resolution means nothing if you can't get your picture in focus, set the iris properly, or find the proper focal length. |
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The only resolution I'm really interested in is my New Years resolution to stop reading technobable, stop pixel peeping, stop worrying about cameras and technology at all... and start focusing on story and actors. |
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I think I may have been the one who made this argument, as I argue pro progressive scan quite a bit. If so, I believe my arguement was more about progressive scan being better for a film print then an interlaced format and pointing out the native resolution of JVC's chips instead of the pixel shifting that some less expensive 1080i cameras are using. Also, of course, progressive scan tends to handle compression better than interlaced formats. The bottom line, IMHO, is that that there are alot of very good cameras out there, no one is clearly the leader. All can produce super high quality pictures. I think in shopping for a sub $10,000 HD camera considerations such as batterylife and ergonomics should take highest priority, because just about everything will deliver superb picture quality. About picture quality, I'm sure I'll get alot of arguments about this, but all 1/3inch chips will look more or less the same. There is a noticable quality difference once you go up in chip size, but overall the size of the CCD's your using seems to affect the overall quality of the picture more then any other factor. |
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No mention of the 50mb/s mode on xdcam ex; however, they might want to throw that in because I have a sneaking feeling that Panasonic is going to lay a bomb on Sony with an under $10k camera with more robust chips and the addition of their new AVC-Intra codec, the 50mb/s one. No official news, just a feeling. What is promised and what is actually delivered as we have experienced can be entirely different. I'm taking a "wait and see" approach regarding the SxS cards. I guess it is hard for me to believe that the king of proprietary, Sony, would create something non-proprietary. That said; I am excited about the XDCam-Ex. If my budget allows, that's the camera I'm currently looking to buy. Of course, who knows? Maybe a new offering from Panasonic or Canon will peak my interest. You gotta love technology. |
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Ok, here's my take on *THE* HD camera to get (sub $10k), by category, since you often need a different tool for a different job, and there isn't one camera that does everything best. Because these are my personal pics, they are to be treated as gospel and are not up for debate! ;)
ENG: Any JVC PROHD camera It has the right ergonomics for the job, and you will blend in with real live professionals. Sports: Canon XLH1 Best zoom/stabilization combo, and sharp. Or JVC HD200, lacks IS and zoom, but has 60p mode. Weddings: Sony. Has anyone ever beaten a Sony for low light performance? Nature: Canon XLH1 See above + only affordable wide angle lens in this range. Indie Film: Panasonic HVX200 or JVC HD200. Arguably the most filmish look, both can overcrank, HD200 has one edge with being able to flip the picture from a 35mm adapter. HVX200 has an edge with DVCPRO HD, but limited storage. Documentary: Sony. Low light wins again. Studio: JVC HD250 or Canon XLH1 for output options. Best Bang For The Buck: Canon XHA1 Personal home use: Canon HV20 seems unstoppable at this point. |
Excellent post Dylan and I think you pretty much nailed it.
Mike |
Dylan's list is the way to start thinking about which under10K camera you can buy today. You put it simple, Dylan.
I've been away of this great forum for a long while, when the HVX200 was coming out. I can't believe in all this time, no external, dockable hardrive has appeared for recording something better than HDV out of the Canons with HD out. |
The other way to look at it is to review tests that determine TVlines resolution. The actual format, be it 720p or 1080i are still restricted to a certain amount of actual resolution or detail determined upon resolution charts. DV.com has up to this point done the most elaborate cross cam chart comparissons. Under $10,000 cam award goes to the Canon HD cams in its interlaced mode. As far as progessive mode goes it is the 720p JVC's that hold the crown despite what many would assume a a lesser 720p format, besting the Canons consideably. These charts do not consider the advantage of the 720p60 modes of the newer JVC cams as far as high motion resolution.
The bottom line is that there is far more to the eqation then "big" numbers, despite what many here are trying to promote. |
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Sorry that you have such a distaste for long gop, but it's very efficient and a very mature technology that modern encoder chips are able to wring a lot of performance out of. Modern NLE systems know how to deal with MPEG Long GOP whereas this was not the case a few years ago. -gb- |
I'm also very curious to see what the Red guys do with their proposed "pocket professional" camera. Probably a year or more away, though...
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For surfing you'll want a long lens and great image stabilization if you are shooting from the shore. So Canon. If you are shooting from the water, I'd look for something that has an affordable waterproof case with a wide angle adapter, and overcrank abilities. So HVX200. For cars, do you mean car shows or racing? If racing, then long lens and IS, so Canon. If car shows, pretty much anything goes. |
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