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General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition
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Old April 25th, 2007, 01:50 AM   #1
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Rev Pro and XDCAM HD

DO you guys think these formats will be the leading tapeless solutions ?
After all The key points about both of them are

Cheap Medium.

Extremely affordable "decks" for digitising and mastering.

They both give the operator a sense of confidence by their reasonable and rugged size.
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Old April 25th, 2007, 09:04 AM   #2
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I doubt either Rev Pro or XDCAM HD discs will ever become a widely used solution compared to tape, flash or hard-drive based recording. The blank discs are expensive compared to other storage options and require a specialized drive to read them, which limits their usefulness if you need to share data with other people. Flash memory is currently more expensive than such discs but dropping rapidly, plus has the advantage of having no moving parts and being easily read on any computer - and you can buy flash memory cards just about anywhere in a pinch. Once flash prices drop enough to be cost-effective for video recording and archiving, that's more likely to become standard for videography just as it has for digital photography.
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Old April 25th, 2007, 05:41 PM   #3
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I would agree with Kevin. Tape remains the most cost effective method of capture. I would need four or five high speed flash cards to record an hour's worth of video at a cost of (last time I looked) $50-$65 per gig. That's about $250 compared to $4.50 for one tape.
For me, flash cards have to be better for cheaper.
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Old April 25th, 2007, 06:10 PM   #4
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Sony has a flash based XDCAM machine (XDCAM EX?) coming out later this year. I suspect we will probably jump from tape right to flash. Tape is most cost-effective, but flash is compelling for it's size and lack of moving parts. Once the cost of flash comes down, it will be the format of choice for video cameras just like it is for still cameras today. Remember still cameras with hard drives? Gigabyte-sized flash memory killed that trend.
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Old April 25th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #5
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I just wanted to point out that the xdcam professional disk runs about the same per hour as a DVCAM tape and about half of the cost of a hdcam tape for the same hour.
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Old April 25th, 2007, 07:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stil Williams View Post
DO you guys think these formats will be the leading tapeless solutions ?
Hard to say, but I can tell you that CBS network and all of its O&O stations are going XDCAM HD. CNN just announced they are going with XDCAM HD. Several independents like myself are using it. It also seems to be getting a strong uptake in the UK. There's a site dedicated to XDCAM based in Australia as well. Sony is saying that this is the replacement for Betacam. Time will tell, but it seems to be catching on.

I believe Fox is going with P2 and perhaps NBC. Don't know what ABC plans to do at this time.

-gb-
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Old April 25th, 2007, 09:19 PM   #7
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XD CAM discs will be used as an archival medium for the XDCAM EX. I really think Blu-Ray will be the successor of tape.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 03:23 AM   #8
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I remember years back Thule ( the car rack company) spent an enormous sum ( millions) in R&D to develop a "click" sound when assembling their roof racks. The speaker at the time pointed out that the locking mechanism was not improved from the amount spent, as it had been superior in the first place, but the user felt assured that once the click was heard, his rack was assembled correctly.

Kevin Shaw wrote
"Once flash prices drop enough to be cost-effective for video recording and archiving, that's more likely to become standard for videography just as it has for digital photography."

true to a degree. I believe Its the psychology of it that counts as well, that's what's important, as in feed back on keyboards when you type, your mouse click, your power switch...

confidnece re assured.

REV PRO and XDCAM, offer this rugged,"tape like" housing with cases that can be labeled and present more of a structure in filing and organizing.


for starters, i have not seen any cases/ labels for P2 cards, where you can label them indicating whether it is progressive, interlaced, resolution format, roll #, M.O.S, the name of the client, the name of the show, T.C -time of day, or rec run, etc etc etc. I do believe this may be an old way of working ( physical labeling), but some habits are hard to knock espcially when they have been working just shy of a century . The same applies to XDCAM EX Series, they are tiny, and i see no cases for them either .i guess this is so, because they were intended to be used again and again. fine

And this is where Sony has bridge the gap. you can shoot and re shoot on your digital media, and then tranfer cheaply ( operative word here ) to XDCAM HD to give in as rushes, to a major network, client, etc labeled up with the relevant info.

"Prosumer" now has the ability to become "professional" by means of transfer Via the PDW-U1 USB XDCAM HD disc read/write device (cheaply), whether direct from camera ( if implemented )or via computer.

To Shoot With REV PRO, you need $26,000 (cost of infinity) to start with, which means this is out of the many "prosumers" reach.

I think Sony is onto a winner here...
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Old April 26th, 2007, 08:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldemar Winkler View Post
I would need four or five high speed flash cards to record an hour's worth of video at a cost of (last time I looked) $50-$65 per gig. That's about $250 compared to $4.50 for one tape.
I don't follow your reasoning at all. Tape is a use-once medium. Flash cards are used over and over again. In very little time, flash cards will pay for themselves, making them actually *less* expensive than using tape.

Also, the price you indicate for a tape is invalid -- it is not $4.50. We are not talking about HDV in this thread, and if we were, then the per-tape cost for HDV would be more than three times that, about $15. However the format in question is XDCAM HD, not HDV. Besides, the per-tape cost for HDCAM is upwards of $35. And we're still talking about write-once media.

Flash memory pays for itself. Eventually over time, the per-usage cost of flash memory is far less than that of tape. However, I'm not sure how tape even made its way into this discussion, as the topic is Rev Pro carts and XDCAM HD discs.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 12:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw View Post
I doubt either Rev Pro or XDCAM HD discs will ever become a widely used solution compared to tape, flash or hard-drive based recording. The blank discs are expensive compared to other storage options and require a specialized drive to read them, which limits their usefulness if you need to share data with other people. Flash memory is currently more expensive than such discs but dropping rapidly, plus has the advantage of having no moving parts and being easily read on any computer - and you can buy flash memory cards just about anywhere in a pinch. Once flash prices drop enough to be cost-effective for video recording and archiving, that's more likely to become standard for videography just as it has for digital photography.
Acording to thompson's website, Rev Pro Disks are compatible with standard rev equipment. This means you can buy an internal reader for $70 and augment the cost of a deck and spend it on disks and back-up storage. As far as HD media is concerned, XDcam disks offer a now unparalleled cost per hour of HD storage, sans HDV. As far as broadcast formats go, I think sony has the most complete and future proof system that ranges from acquisition to archival, with keeping all original files from acquisition intact.

The Infinity series camera is something truley fascinating in my mind. I really like the variety of formats it can shoot. The U.I. looks amazing, and omega's Rev disk in general will be popular among different kinds of users users. I think 10bit 1920x1080 and the fact that you wont need an epensive reader or deck for this format will convice a lot of usuers to go out and buy this cam, despite any drawbacks with workflow or back-up.
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