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General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition
Topics about HD production.


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Old May 11th, 2007, 10:13 AM   #1
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church setup help

Setting up a local church with video equipment seeking your help
budget around 28k final output (dvd/web)

Cameras:

3 Canon Xh - A1 x 3

$3300
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=447098

Bogen Tripods with 516heads x 3

$1000
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...gs_Black_.html

Macpro x1900 4gigs of ram:
$3700

Focus enhancements MX4

$2000
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=386854

Marshall preview monitors (will need 2 more for program)

$1249
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...uad_4_LCD.html

Firewire distance cable 150ft: feeding to macpro/liveswitcher

$100
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProdu...f=72&sort=prod


Pioneer dvd recorder

$1000
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=472688&is=REG

This setup came recommend. Basically company setups patch panel where all cables run. Marshall's go in a case along with focus enhancements switcher. Cameras get marshall arm for viewing footage. Firewire cables run from camera to focus board (all cables from camera will be woven together).

Audio comes from board and is conditioned before running into focus switcher...
My only concern was running to many cables and the small size of the marshalls (I know how churches can be). Final output will be DV (but with future thinking in mind.)

any help would be greatly appreciated
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Old May 11th, 2007, 08:15 PM   #2
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Hi Dante,

My church just purchased a similiar setup: 2 Canon XHA1's, a Mac Pro, and a Newtek Tricaster Pro switcher. I recommended they get the MX-4 also, and save a lot of money, but they didn't listen.

You mentioned running firewire from the cameras to the mixer. You might want to double check, because I'm pretty sure the MX-4 is analog only and does not accept dv firewire. You would have to go the next step up and get the MX-4 DV which is almost twice the money.

Steve
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Old May 14th, 2007, 12:14 PM   #3
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The MX4 comes in two flavors, with MX4DV handling digital/firewire inputs as well. You may need some in-line amps for your DV signal, to compensate for losses over the long cables (Datavideo manufactures them).

From what I learned on other forums, the Focus Enhancement products are a bit too fragile for a proffessional environment (they are more of a DJ/VJ stuff), so I decided for the Datavideo SE-800 for my church. On the other hand, mixing DV signals will not only cut down on quality, but you will also run into delay issues.

Bottom line: you might be better off working with the highest possible quality analog signal all the way, which is component, and only convert to DV after it's all mixed, effects/transitions applied. Besides, the SE-800 can be upgraded, even partially if needed, adding DV inputs to either one of the four inputs and/or the output.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 12:20 AM   #4
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I have been told to make a few changes...

Instead of the

Canon xh-g1 I will go with the Sony V1u

instead of the mx-4 I will go with the Data video:
http://tinyurl.com/27d9tx

Also add a projector to that
Panasonic PT-D3500U XGA

All that's left is lighting, and a still camera (more than likely the 30D or the D200)

Any suggestions are welcomed.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:49 PM   #5
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Do you mind if I ask why you chose the Sony over the Canon? I'm curious.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 10:46 PM   #6
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Dante what is your deliverable going to be?

is this just for church vision, or is this for future TV use, because if your planning tv for the future, your really better getting a good SD 1/2 inch camera and like whats already mentioned a good quality analogue route.

If you want to go hd, I'd use a hd camera with good manual focus
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Old May 19th, 2007, 10:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Claus View Post
Do you mind if I ask why you chose the Sony over the Canon? I'm curious.
gone back to canon...
Only concern is if I used a marshall monitor on the cams what would i
go to the switcher with?
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Old May 24th, 2007, 10:30 PM   #8
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I question the design.

Why use Firewire for transmission?

Why use HD cams when all you are doing is producing web and DVD?

Ervin asks a great question that has gone unanswered.

An alternative design is to use some SD cams with composite or SDI transmission to a switcher (we've banned Focus products because they are so fragile). Consider two cameras to be remote controlled to save you an operator.

The output of your switcher (Program Video) goes to your projector(s) for imag, any archival recorders and a converter to Firewire for your G5 to post produce to web.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 11:48 PM   #9
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Well firewire had a long cable...

So you'd suggest Component?

I am using HD to give us future potential, plus If there are any other fuctions
besides the weekly service I can record those at a higher res (for web or DVD) 16:9 also of course color space (even when down converted.


SD cams like what the XL2?
Or which are you suggesting?

Also how would I remote control 2 extra cams are u suggesting
wide shots and have one person man the main camera?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest House View Post
I question the design.

Why use Firewire for transmission?

Why use HD cams when all you are doing is producing web and DVD?

Ervin asks a great question that has gone unanswered.

An alternative design is to use some SD cams with composite or SDI transmission to a switcher (we've banned Focus products because they are so fragile). Consider two cameras to be remote controlled to save you an operator.

The output of your switcher (Program Video) goes to your projector(s) for imag, any archival recorders and a converter to Firewire for your G5 to post produce to web.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 07:25 AM   #10
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Going component from the cameras to the switcher is your best option because you want to keep your signal at its highest quality for switching and effects/transitions/overlays. Once you compress it to DV (firewire), you loose quality. And forget composite, it's the lowest possible quality, lower than DV.

As far as cameras, my personal opinion is to go with HD cameras, exactly for the purpose you mention - those cameras will be more than likely used for other purposes as well... you may need to produce a DVD or prepare a program for TV/cable broadcast and if properly used (and with proper post workflow), a decent HDV camcorder will give you a much better picture. This is why I went for the Sony Z1; in addition, I would not buy anything without XLR mike inputs to have full control over your audio!!!

For remote controlled pan/tilt heads take a look at this one: http://www.amazon.com/eBenk-Automati.../dp/B000KNMGR2 ($99)or this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Pan_Tilt.html or this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lt_Remote.html ($4100)depending on your budget. You will have to add a LANC controler for zooming if needed.
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Last edited by Ervin Farkas; June 13th, 2007 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Added content
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Old June 13th, 2007, 10:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas View Post
this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lt_Remote.html ($4100)depending on your budget. You will have to add a LANC controler for zooming if needed.
These are nice units, and the controller allows you to preprogram camera moves, which could be useful in a setting where you'll be doing the same thing often and may need to use less experienced operators. I forget the model number (don't work there anymore) but I'm sure B&H has it.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 05:13 AM   #12
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For remote controlled pan/tilt heads take a look at this one: http://www.amazon.com/eBenk-Automati.../dp/B000KNMGR2 ($99)or this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Pan_Tilt.html or this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lt_Remote.html ($4100)depending on your budget. You will have to add a LANC controler for zooming if needed.[/QUOTE]

I would be careful about the eBenk or Benk controlers. First of all, they are not LANC compatible. Secondly, they work wireless off of the camera's IR for full function. The unit might or might not work with your camera. A better pan/tilt cheapie would be Bescor MP 101 (Camera's up to 8lbs) $120. For heavier cameras there is the spectrum 7000 for one (up to 20 lbs) for under $400 and others for more money. I don't want to mention the vendors because I'm unsure if they're a DVInfo advertiser in support of this site.
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Old June 17th, 2007, 06:44 PM   #13
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I think if we (Church producers) are honest with ourselves and truly understand what we do in the context of a Church service, one of the most important things a production team does is make the production equipment and ourselves invisible. If those leading the service are heard and seen, and worship lyrics, pre-produced audio/video are delivered on cue without a flub by the production crew detected by the audience, then it's a good day. In my opinion, getting lyrics on cue, re-imaging stage participants for the back rows, and delivering audio/video media on cue are the most important things. Assuming that audio is taken care of, you need a good switcher, lyrics software formated for lower 3rds, DVD player, screens, projectors a bunch of distribution amps and one camera.

An SD system is 4 times the resolution needed for a web production and all you need for DVD. Multiple cameras, 16x9 and HD is gravy. Very expensive gravy that I think has marginal value add week to week. Adds to the ooh and gah gah factor but thats probably not your goal. So, given your tight budget, I hate to see you spread it too thinly and not put it into the thing that is most important: reliable and consistent invisibility.

Something like a used Ikegami HL-45W with a Canon lens, MA400 control unit on a Vinten Vision Ped Plus with a Vinten Vision 250 head is a good start. Add remote zoom and focus controls, hi resolution monitor and a second handle. Your camera op concentrates on frame and focus, you do the shading in the control room with the CCU. Add some comfort monitors to the switcher bay so you can see every possible input, preview what's next and what your program feed looks like. Don't cheap out on Preview and Program monitors.

If you must have widescreen, you can still be 16x9 and SD. Also, double or triple the cost of all your monitors. Use whatever cabling you want to run to your switcher but the wisdom of this group points to SDI or component, and not Firewire. Composite from a quality camera like the Ike will astound you. But the biggest bang for the buck IMHO is for a quality switcher that lets you key lyrics over video instead of the usual full screen lyrics on a pretty background. I'd pick keying over 16x9 any day. If you can key lyrics, then you can use all that money spent on video for more than just the message. There's a bunch of operators in this scheme that need to be coordinated so add an intercom with headsets for everyone.

Now, count up how many people you need every week to run each of these stations add 50% and that's the minimum people you need to recruit for your crew before adding more camera operators. Add someone to post produce your recording too. Additionally, there's a lot to be said for walking in on Sunday morning and finding everything exactly how you left it and not scurrying around tracking down camcorders repurposed by the Youth group to make a funny video Friday night or, perish the thought, went out on a video scavenger hunt in the hands of a 14 year old. Ugh. :-)

Now, I'm not against the idea of your second camera also serving in the equipment kit for your Church video production team, just be forewarned it's going to get a ton of wear and tear, have its settings all borked up and occasionally not be around (cuz it's in the shop or on a mission trip). If you want to go the remote camera route, take a look at B&H under Professional Video->Cameras->Studio. They aren't cheap by the time you add a lens, pan/tilt and a remote CCU. They don't pay off in terms of operators until you have two controlled by one person but they are very good at being invisible. Compare them to the total cost of a manually operated camera, head, tripod and intercom. Once you have one, additional cameras plug into the existing CCU and controller. Here's one that will consume your entire budget:
http://expandore.com/product/Panason.../AW_PH300A.htm

I guess I'd encourage you to be honest with yourself that the system you are putting in place is not going to fall apart in a couple of years and that what you are doing is aligned with what's important about what you are doing.
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