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Old June 11th, 2007, 04:18 PM   #1
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Which camera to use as b-roll for F900?

I have an upcoming shoot with the F900 and we need to shoot some second camera material that will be intercut. I had suggested the XLH1 but the client has been told that the Z1 is more appropriate for their post workflow. I thought they were both HDV cameras--they will have to get bumped up to HDCAM in any event, so is there some other compatibility issue that I don't know about...?
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Old June 11th, 2007, 04:39 PM   #2
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It may be because the XLH1 records a HDV variant that the Sony deck will not play back?

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Old June 11th, 2007, 04:48 PM   #3
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That's what I'm thinking also--they have a Sony HDV deck in their post setup.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 05:45 PM   #4
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The other thing I can think of is that they might be using a Miranda conversion device to convert from firewire to HD-SDI. There could also be an incompatibility there (??).

2- HDV can be a huge PITA to capture for an online session, because it takes a really long time for the deck to shuttle. Conform sessions take a lot longer than HDCAM, which takes slightly longer than XDCAM HD.

I am guessing your production will just bump all the footage to HDCAM. So interestingly enough HDV is cheaper, but not as much as you'd think because of the added post costs. In some situations XDCAM HD may not cost that much more (e.g. you offline in a NLE that can ingest native XDCAM, and you're shooting a lot of material).

*I never had to deal with canon HDV footage so I can't say for sure.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Papert View Post
I have an upcoming shoot with the F900 and we need to shoot some second camera material that will be intercut. I had suggested the XLH1 but the client has been told that the Z1 is more appropriate for their post workflow. I thought they were both HDV cameras--they will have to get bumped up to HDCAM in any event, so is there some other compatibility issue that I don't know about...?
I think you'll find that the XDCAM HD would intercut very well, especially if you took the live HDSDI out of the F350. Jody Eldred commented that he sometimes has a difficult time distinguishing the F900 from the F350 in the edit bay.

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Old June 11th, 2007, 11:15 PM   #6
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Well, I probably should have mentioned that it needs to be a small camera so that I can run like a banshee (with a lightweight Steadicam) as opposed to the vaguely rushed waddle I can achieve with an F900.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 01:35 AM   #7
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Hah! What a great descriptive phrase "vaguely rushed waddle"... What an image!
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Old June 12th, 2007, 07:55 AM   #8
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if your running like a banshee.... then HDV might give you some motion problems.... would the panny HVX200 P2 setup be better? even though it's rez is lower than the canon and sonys?

To bad the sony XDCAM EX is not out yet... would be perfect?
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Old June 12th, 2007, 08:40 AM   #9
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I don't think the motion is going to be a problem--my experience so far with HDV (the Canons) has been fine with stabilized footage. I haven't gotten them to break up yet.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 09:36 AM   #10
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you might want to directly inquire with the client's post- house. i was told the same thing, when i had to shoot some footage for HDCAM transfer, that the Z1U was a better choice than the A1. but it turns out that the post- house was also a Sony equipment distributor and a Sony high-end rental house (mostly renting their Cinealta cameras, which, they too, preferred to intercut with Z1Us....), and they simply did not want to deal with footage from an unfamiliar camera in a critical situation. it may be that there are no pure technical reasons for this preference, just the issue of working with what they already know.

i have Sony HDV and Canon HDV cameras and, in 60i, they play well together. their progressed/pseudo-progressed images do not, however, but i'm assuming you are avoiding those altogether....

i have an FX-1 and a pair of A1s, the dumbed-down version of the Z1U and the XLH1, and using the factory settings, the footage is not that different--the A1 has a bit more magenta, which color-corrects pretty easily. the FX-1 has a tad more saturation, also easily matched in the editor, or in-camera with the A1's customizable settings, if you prefer. i doubt that most people could distinguish the raw footage from both these cameras, they are that close.

i don't know that i would give either Sony or Canon footage the edge. it's a complete tie. the Canons don't make better footage--the reason that they are better cameras is that they are more fully-featured, but it does not sound as if you will be implementing those features if you are shooting flat and inter-cutting with an F900.

you may be able to run just a leetle beet faster with the Z1U.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 01:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz View Post
i have Sony HDV and Canon HDV cameras and, in 60i, they play well together. their progressed/pseudo-progressed images do not, however, but i'm assuming you are avoiding those altogether....
Uhh--was planning on shooting 24F so it would cut with the F900--is there an issue with that? I know that they will be cutting the piece with the pulldown applied, so there shouldn't be any problems--should there??
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Old June 13th, 2007, 01:54 PM   #12
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my comments were based on comparing the Z1U footage against the Canon XH series, since that is their preference. if they are shooting a Z1U, there is no viable progressed option that doesn't look too soft to intercut with an F900.

the progressed/F images on the XH cameras are lovely, though.

i have heard that Canon progressed playback on the Sony decks is a problem--which goes back to what everyone else has already said. playback of 24F on a Sony deck may be a problem. if you own the camera, or know someone who does, you can just hook it up and ingest. i use an HV10 for a deck, which plays back FX-1 footage perfectly as well, so Sony capture via Canon cams is not a problem. but they would need the Canon camera (or an HV10 or -20) to be available for digitizing the tapes.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 02:15 PM   #13
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Right, Sony decks won't play the Canon 24f format. Canon doesn't have a 'deck' out that will. So likely as not, this is the reason for their preference for an all Sony workflow.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 02:31 PM   #14
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Very good, this is all making sense to me. So I will leave the camera with them for the ingest (maybe even my HV20 instead). Since the spot is ultimately being posted in SD, I'm sure the step of going through the analog conversion (via component out) won't hurt the footage too much, do you agree?
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Old June 14th, 2007, 11:59 PM   #15
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What about the HVR-V1?

It sounds like you need an HVR-V1. It has a good 24P implementation and when I bumped it up to 1920x1080 (this was 30p) with Cineform Prospect it looked very, very good.

I have an XDCAM 350 and with a little color correction the V1 cuts together rather nicely with that, and since the 350 cuts together well with the 900... anyway, it should work fine.

It's also much smaller and lighter than a Z1, it has good latitude, it doesn't cost too much, its tapes play in any Sony HDV deck (24P is 60i with pulldown) and mine at least has proven reliable so far -- not a dropout over about 20 tapes.

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