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Old June 15th, 2009, 11:00 PM   #1
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HV30 24p work flow

I'm having a terrible time trying to figure out a work flow for my HV30 in 24p mode.

I have Liquid, and I have Edius Neo. Liquid doesn't understand the 24p in 60i from the HV30, so I thought I have two choices. Basically use Neo to get the 24p footage and then either edit in Neo or export as 24p and import that into Liquid.

This weekend I shot a bunch of footage with my HV30 in 24p mode, and I stopped and restarted the camera, resulting in many clips.

Getting it into Neo was a royal PITA. Sometimes I used the 23.98p over 59.94i (2323)and it would capture fine on the first try. Sometimes I had to try it a few times to get a smooth capture. And sometimes I had to use the 23.98pA over 59.94i (2332) to get smooth motion. Otherwise every other frame appeared to be a blending of two frames.

Okay, it took a long time to get all the clips just right. First thing I did was put them all on my 24 (23.98) timeline and print to file. I then imported this into Liquid and find it's a 29.97 video, and every 4th frame is repeated - the same as if I simply captured directly into Liquid. Something got screwed up.

I go to Neo and click on clip properties. Instead of 23.98p I find everything is 29.97i. Why?

I change one clip to 23.98p and print that to file. I get three frames then a repeated frame in Liquid, and it says it's still 29.97 fps.

I tried the HDV and it says 1080/24p in the description, but my output options are Sony 24p over 60i, or Canon 24F over 60i.

I'm really confused at this point. I know the HV30 lacks the appropriate "flags" to tell the software what to do, but I think I must be doing something really wrong to get such inconsistent/poor results.

I know a lot of people use these Canon camcorders, so what's the "secret"???

Thanks.
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Old June 16th, 2009, 09:18 AM   #2
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Are you using a 29.97 sequence in Liquid? If you drop 23.98 material into a 29.97 sequence in Liquid it will automatically duplicate every 4th frame to make it fit the correct timescale. Create a new 23.98 sequence and drop in your material. Also check the clip properties in Liquid to see if the clip thinks it is 23.98.

By the way what sort of format are you exporting to bring into Liquid? DV is a 29.97 only codec.
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Old June 16th, 2009, 11:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
Are you using a 29.97 sequence in Liquid? If you drop 23.98 material into a 29.97 sequence in Liquid it will automatically duplicate every 4th frame to make it fit the correct timescale. Create a new 23.98 sequence and drop in your material. Also check the clip properties in Liquid to see if the clip thinks it is 23.98.

By the way what sort of format are you exporting to bring into Liquid? DV is a 29.97 only codec.
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the very quick reply.

I have tried both 24p and 23.98p in Liquid.

I have tried four different formats: HDV, Canopus AVI, Generic MPEG, and WMV.

Canopus AVI does not import at all (blue screen), and I understand why.

HDV comes in but not at 23.98. Liquid sees this as 29.97, and I *think* I'm now understanding why. I presume there is no 24p or 23.98p in HDV, only those frame rates in a 60i stream (in the States at least)? Which is why I had the option of either Sony 24p/60i or Canon 24f/60i when exporting????

Generic MPEG crashes Liquid. However, using GSpot I find that the frame rate is 23.98fps!

WMV comes into Liquid, but at the wrong aspect ration (1:1). I am going to see if I can fix that. Liquid's "properties" tab says this is 23.98 fps. Audio, however, sounds slowed down. It's in sink, but my wife sounds kinda...off. ;)

Edit: As expected, I was able to fix the WMV aspect ratio and now have a 23.98 clip in a 23.98 sequence. It looks soft.

Would really love to also find out how to work with Edius so the captures are consistent. I know the time code gets disrupted when I turn the camera off, and I'm sure the cadence is disrupted every time I start/stop, but I kinda thought Neo wouldn't have trouble.
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Old June 17th, 2009, 05:53 PM   #4
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24p from an HV30 (or HV20) is in a 60i stream. You have to remove the pulldown to get true 24p. I do that manually with VirtualDub (after converting the m2t to an avi intermediate) or VirtualDub Mod (after converting the m2t file to an mpg file). You can also frame serve to Virtual Dub from AviSynth, with m2t files.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 11:17 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Robert M Wright View Post
24p from an HV30 (or HV20) is in a 60i stream. You have to remove the pulldown to get true 24p. I do that manually with VirtualDub (after converting the m2t to an avi intermediate) or VirtualDub Mod (after converting the m2t file to an mpg file). You can also frame serve to Virtual Dub from AviSynth, with m2t files.
Hi Robert,

Thanks for the reply.

I know about the 24p/60i stream, but Neo has the cadence "filter" built-in to extract the 24p from the 60i stream during capture, or at least it's supposed to.

What I'm running into:

Some 24p clips capture just fine first time. I get smooth motion blur where I expect it.
Some 24p clips capture not so fine - every other frame appears almost like a double exposure, for lack of a better term. Sometimes I can recapture the affected clip and it comes in fine, and sometimes it doesn't. After three or so tries, I change the capture format from 2323 to 2332, and sometimes this results in a good capture, but sometimes not.

This becomes an issue when I am capturing multiple 24p clips - I have to capture every clip manually, multiple times in most cases.

I'm also new to the HV-30 and it's 24p, so I'm learning, and I admit my problems could be my own doing, but Neo is supposed to support the Canon format directly.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #6
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I tried Cineform to remove pulldown, and found it quite problematic. I gave up on it in short order. Using VDub works properly 100% of the time for me.
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Old June 18th, 2009, 12:42 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Robert M Wright View Post
I tried Cineform to remove pulldown, and found it quite problematic. I gave up on it in short order. Using VDub works properly 100% of the time for me.
Very interesting. I have used VDub in the past and will check it out. THanks for the suggestion.
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