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Old June 1st, 2006, 04:13 PM   #1
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Matrox RX10/100, Canopus EDIUS DVX

Would you buy one of the above produvts today? If your main goal was editing standard DV 720x576?

They are all reasonable priced today. And some realtime colorcorrection and noise reduction is nice. My AMD X2 4600+ delivers good, but as soon as you apply 2 or 3 filters on a clip it sloooows down.

I see two problems with the cards:

1. They do not work with Vegas
2. It seems like there are only drivers for PPro 1.5 availabe? Anyone running the cards with PPro 2.0?

I guess I could learn to love Edius, but it would require a serious amount of Whisky :-)

Time to hit the sack!

ps. OT: I bought CCE Basic, it has plugin support for PPro 1.5, will it work with 2.0? and in which folder do I install it? ds.

//Lazze
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 03:20 AM   #2
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Yes, CCE Basic works with PPro 2.0. When i bought it the installer did not install to PPro 2.0 automatically. Install it to another folder and copy the plug-in to C:\Program\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0\Plug-ins\en_US

Yes, Matrox RT.X-cards work with Premiere only. Matrox has not released drivers for PPro 2.0 yet. They say drivers will be released in june.

If you buy a Matrox card, be prepared for trouble. They are sometimes tricky to get working perfectly and is in fact designed for Premiere 6.5 (or 6.0?) and many functions in PPro dont even work when editing a Matrox project. I used a RT.X10, basicly a RT.X100 with fewer functions, and i dont use it anymore. I got tired of all product limitations and reversed field order etc. I did not save time by using the card, its faster for me to edit Standard DV Projects. So if you buy one, then you will have to buy a serious amount of whiskey...

So my answer is no, i would not buy a Matrox RT.X100 today. How long will Matrox provide the card with drivers? PPro 2.0 was released jan 2006 and Matrox has not released any drivers for PPro 2.0 yet, only two Preview Releases so far. Thats a hint...

Anyhow, it is a great card when it works but it is loaded with to many flaws that tricky drivers that easily crash the computer and thus causes irritation and takes time to solve the problem. (Sometimes the problem is the card itself and can not be solved...) I prefer to edit than to trying to find what causes the error "Updating Timeline", etc, etc, etc, etc... It takes to long time!

Before you buy it, take a look at Matrox RT.X100 - System recommendations to avoid trouble.

/Roger
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 05:13 AM   #3
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Roger,

Thank you for the info! It is really strange that there are so much trouble with the HW NLE boards. I had a Storm2 for a while - it was baaaad. Considering how few HW NLE boards there are available today - maybe the HW companies feel that the CPU of a modern PC i enough.

Here in Sweden, almost no one sells the DVStorm2 or the Matrox. They do have the Edius DVX with the hardware bundle(Canopus are very secretive about what the HW board really can do).

// Lazze
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 06:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Siden
Here in Sweden, almost no one sells the DVStorm2 or the Matrox. They do have the Edius DVX with the hardware bundle(Canopus are very secretive about what the HW board really can do).
www.dustin.se and www.scandinavinaphoto.se and www.lrtv.se sells RT.X cards. A brand new DV Storm seems to be hard to get in any country.

If you are interested in Edius, visit Lindqvist Radio&TV and contact them. They may have a Edius system in their store so you can see it in action. Talk to Robert, Patrik or Max.

/Roger
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 07:13 AM   #5
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Checking the web via google / and on canopus userforum I draw the conclusion that PPro 2 drivers for both Matrox and Canopus can take between a long time and forever before they hit the streets.

Many people report problems with Matrox.

Many people have problems using Canopus Edius for making DVD:s with Encore.

So I think I'll save my money and just go for a faster CPU in a year or so.

best regards,

Lazze Z

ps: Lindqvist doesn't seem to sell Edius DVX version, only NX/HX. ds.
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 07:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Siden
ps: Lindqvist doesn't seem to sell Edius DVX version, only NX/HX. ds.
Give them a call! If you want to buy it they will sell it to you! :)

They can answer detailed questions about Edius for you, so its worth the call!

/Roger
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Old June 2nd, 2006, 10:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
If you buy a Matrox card, be prepared for trouble. They are sometimes tricky to get working perfectly and is in fact designed for Premiere 6.5 (or 6.0?) and many functions in PPro dont even work when editing a Matrox project.
Would you mind being clearer about the "many functions" that don't work in Premiere Pro when editing a Matrox project? I'm an RT.X100 user and frankly, I don't know what "many functions" you are referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
I used a RT.X10, basicly a RT.X100 with fewer functions, and i dont use it anymore. I got tired of all product limitations and reversed field order etc.
I can't recall having a reversed field order problem myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
I did not save time by using the card, its faster for me to edit Standard DV Projects. So if you buy one, then you will have to buy a serious amount of whiskey...
I supposed that depends on what you use it for. If you do a lot of color correction like I do you will save time using an RT.X100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
So my answer is no, i would not buy a Matrox RT.X100 today. How long will Matrox provide the card with drivers? PPro 2.0 was released jan 2006 and Matrox has not released any drivers for PPro 2.0 yet, only two Preview Releases so far. Thats a hint...
I wouldn't necessarily read anything into that. It took three months twenty days from the announcement of Premiere Pro 1.0 until Matrox's final drivers were certified by Adobe; it was under two months for the 1.5 release, but that was a half version update.

Considering that Matrox has been working on releasing their new RT.X2 board, I would say it's understandable the RT.X100 Premiere Pro 2.0 driver release has taken longer this time. For that matter, Matrox didn't have to release Premiere Pro 2.0 drivers for the RT.X100 at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
Before you buy it, take a look at Matrox RT.X100 - System recommendations to avoid trouble.
Can't argue with that excellent advice. Although if you are purchasing now I would recommend looking at the new RT.X2. Since Matrox has released this new board I don't know how much longer they will support the RT.X100.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 09:38 AM   #8
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Hi Christopher! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik
Would you mind being clearer about the "many functions" that don't work in Premiere Pro when editing a Matrox project? I'm an RT.X100 user and frankly, I don't know what "many functions" you are referring to.
  • "Updating Timeline, Please Wait..." It did not disappear when Hotfix2 or the update to PPro 1.5.1 came out.
  • "Updating Timeline, Please Wait..." does sometimes cause the computer to crash and a reboot is a must. When you launch PPro agian: "Cannot find Splash.avi" and you have to manually delete Mtxrt-folder, otherwise you can not launch PPro.
  • One can not use WYSIWYG and Alt-tab between PPro and AE. Only one Adobe application at a time can be open, otherwise the WYSIWYG plug-in will freeze = reboot or manually restart the Service that handles the WYSIWYG plug-in. One can not use PPro and AE and Alt-tab between them...
  • Some Matrox Fx's dont work without flickering when using PAL footage.
  • One can not record audio directly to the Timeline.
  • One can not use any other View Zoom Level than Fit in Source and Program monitor. Using stills @ 1600x1200 for panning is worthless with Fit only.
  • One can not display Safe Zones in Source and Program monitor.
  • There is a latency between PPro and RT.X. Press Play and you will see that it takes approx 0.5 second until PPro starts to play. Playback in a Standard DV Project starts instantly. Also, when you stop the playback, a Matrox project always continue to play approx 10-15 frames while a Standard DV Project stops instantly. This can be very frustrating if you are cutting a music video or you have to finish your project asap.
  • Press L or spacebar to start playback. Press L once again to double the speed and you will see that it takes some time for PPro to actually double the speed. The same goes for playing backwards using the J-key and pressing J again. A Standard DV Project doubles instantly. Most of the times the audio dissapears during fast playback in a Matrox Project.
  • Matrox Projects does sometimes flag 4:3 footage as 16:9.
  • If you capture a clip in PPro's Capture Window from a DV-Device the clips Media Start in the Project Window will always be 00:00:00:01 even if you started your capture from 00:08:25:14. If you use batch capture to redigitize that clip, guess what happens.
  • If you log clips in PPro's Capture Window, capture them and later on need to redigitize any clip they will not be captured at 100% frame accurance.

Most of the solutions is: "As a workaround, do this and that or edit a Standard DV Project".

If you want more, read the Release Notes for X.Tools 6122 - There are 5 (!) pages full of Operational Limitations when using Matrox RT.X and PPro. Using PPro without a Matrox card, there is none!

Some of these things are very minor flaws, but all togheter with sometimes crappy support i dont think its worth all the trouble with the card. It is so wonderful to use Adobe Production Studio with far less (almost none) freezes, no field order oriented trouble, no time spend on figuring out if the thing that not work in PPro is a user error, PPro error, computer error or a Matrox error. Without the card there can only be user error, computer error or PPro error. I makes things easier since many errors are directly or indirectly related to the Matrox card.

My computer is build with validated parts only. The parts have been validated by Matrox for use with Matrox RT.X10 or RT.X100.

I am tired of workarounds and want to use PPro at 100%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik
I can't recall having a reversed field order problem myself.
You are in NTSC country. I live in Sweden and we use PAL and Matrox follows the so called "blue book" and therefore Matrox PAL is Upper Field First. Bring a Matrox PAL-captured clip into AE and its useless unless you use Interpret Footage in AE or edit AE's Interpretation Rules.txt. By default AE's PAL is Lower field First. But why cant Matrox follow Adobe, all DV is Lower Field First?

Yes, its no big deal to use AE's Interpret Footage or to change Interpretation Rules.txt. My point is that one have to do more things here and there when using a Matrox card. And if you forget one step...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik
I supposed that depends on what you use it for. If you do a lot of color correction like I do you will save time using an RT.X100.
Correct! I do miss that function but the PPro color correction tools are more flexable imo and it's worth the rendering time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik
I wouldn't necessarily read anything into that. It took three months twenty days from the announcement of Premiere Pro 1.0 until Matrox's final drivers were certified by Adobe; it was under two months for the 1.5 release, but that was a half version update. Considering that Matrox has been working on releasing their new RT.X2 board, I would say it's understandable the RT.X100 Premiere Pro 2.0 driver release has taken longer this time. For that matter, Matrox didn't have to release Premiere Pro 2.0 drivers for the RT.X100 at all.
It may be understandable, and just because of that its very understandable that Matrox will take long time to develop drivers for RT.X10/100 next time. Do i want to wait +5 month's next time? No, i did not even wait for the drivers for PPro 2.0, it takes to long time.

/Roger
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Last edited by Roger Averdahl; June 3rd, 2006 at 10:08 AM.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 10:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • "Updating Timeline, Please Wait..." It did not disappear when Hotfix2 or the update to PPro 1.5.1 came out.
  • "Updating Timeline, Please Wait..." does sometimes cause the computer to crash and a reboot is a must. When you launch PPro agian: "Cannot find Splash.avi" and you have to manually delete Mtxrt-folder, otherwise you can not launch PPro.
Yes, this has been a problem some have experienced. But I thought this was supposed to be about standard Premiere Pro features that were disabled when using an Matrox editing preset, not a bug list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • One can not use WYSIWYG and Alt-tab between ex PPro and AE. Only one Adobe application at a time can be open, otherwise the WYSIWYG plug-in will freeze = reboot or manually restart the Service that handles the WYSIWYG plug-in. One can not use PPro and AE and Alt-tab between them...
The WYSIWYG plugin is a feature added by Matrox for video output through their card - it is not a standard feature in Premiere Pro to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • Some Matrox Fx's dont work without flickering when using PAL footage.
Since these are Matrox effects, they do not qualify as normal Premiere features that are disabled by Matrox DV presets. Besides, this would be more appropriately called a bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • One can not record audio directly to the Timeline.
  • One can not use any other View Zoom Level than Fit in Source and Program monitor. Using stills @ 1600x1200 for panning is worthless with Fit only.
  • One can not display Safe Zones in Source and Program monitor.
All granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • There is a latency between PPro and RT.X. Press Play and you will see that it takes approx 0.5 second until PPro starts to play. Playback in a Standard DV Project starts instantly. Also, when you stop the playback, a Matrox project always continue to play approx 10-15 frames while a Standard DV Project stops instantly. This can be very frustrating if you are cutting a music video or you have to finish your project asap.
  • Press L or spacebar to start playback. Press L once again to double the speed and you will see that it takes some time for PPro to actually double the speed. The same goes for playing backwards using the J-key and pressing J again. A Standard DV Project doubles instantly. Most of the times the audio dissapears during fast playback in a Matrox Project.
Again, all granted. But I wouldn't really call these "features" that are disabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • Matrox Projects does sometimes flag 4:3 footage as 16:9.
Never happened to me. Again, this qualifies for a bug, not a feature that was disabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Averdahl
  • If you capture a clip from a DV-Device the clips Media Start in the Project Window will always be 00:00:00:01 even if you started your capture from 00:08:25:14. If you use batch capture to redigitize that clip, guess what happens.
  • If you log clips in PPro's Capture Window, capture them and later on need to redigitize any clip they will not be captured at 100% frame accurance.
I've captured by Matrox DV device control and then later had the Premiere capture module go back and recapture a selected clip again automatically. It worked fine. I have no idea why the timecode was lost in your case.

Once we weeded out the bugs and non-Premiere features from the list I count exactly three Premiere Pro features in your list that are disabled by using a Matrox DV preset. That really isn't that many.

I, too, have encountered a few bugs when using the Matrox RT.X100. But the real-time performance is still nice to have. Each individual has to decide if the trade offs are worth it for them. In your case they obviously weren't.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 03:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik
Each individual has to decide if the trade offs are worth it for them. In your case they obviously weren't.
Correct!

I should not have used the words "many functions" in my previous post. But you got the message in later posts. Sorry for the confusion. :)

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Old June 5th, 2006, 08:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Siden
I guess I could learn to love Edius, but it would require a serious amount of Whisky :-)
Yeah, I struggled with Edius for about a year before I finally figured out how it works, but once I did that I've been pretty happy with it. Edius does a decent job of editing DV footage in real time with no rendering required for either on-screen or firewire output, and that's without any special hardware card on today's faster computers. The main thing I use my DVStorm card for today is to generate MPEG2 output in real time, which may also be possible on some computers without special hardware. So I guess I wouldn't buy any SD-only editing board today unless the price was really reasonable, since SD video is on its last legs anyway.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 09:46 AM   #12
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I began my business with a Matrox RT-2500 and Premiere 6.0 only to have the worst headaches of my life. Later Matrox went to ther RTX series and things did not get any better. Always late with semi-functional drives that produced intensive computer crashes (earthquake size).
Switched all production systems to Canopus DVStorm 2 and things got very smooth and now with Edius and Premiere Pro removed all the Canopus cards, installed US $12.00 firewire cards and even on 1.8 Mhz Intel CPU's the capturing, editing and rendering is flawless.
From these NLE's I export to one large AVI file and import it into Encore to create my DVD's without any quality loss.
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