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HD and UHD ( 2K+ ) Digital Cinema
Various topics: HD, UHD (2K / 4K) Digital Cinema acquisition to distribution.


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Old March 12th, 2007, 09:55 PM   #1
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CSI: Record HD-SDI direct to Disc Array

Okay...has anyone heard anymore of this ?
this would be amazing if it really works...

Recording HD-SDI from the Canon XL-H1 to this drive array....330mbps.

http://ctt.ru/products/hd/flash_dvr/

I also just found this PDF file....

http://www.kinor.ru/files/images/Kinor_fdvr.pdf

Last edited by Kevin Martorana; March 12th, 2007 at 10:13 PM. Reason: found more info
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Old March 13th, 2007, 04:22 AM   #2
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I checked the price for the Flash DVR. The cost is from $6200 and it is available in one month.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 05:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Kevin Martorana View Post

Recording HD-SDI from the Canon XL-H1 to a drive array....330mbps.
Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew
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Old March 13th, 2007, 09:39 AM   #4
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WOW...thanks guys...

We'll certainly check it out at NAB ! Having the ability to record directly from the HD-SDI on the Canon....and NOT go to tape would be awesome !
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Old March 13th, 2007, 11:58 AM   #5
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Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew
Great to hear this Drew,

Since you don't have it built yet. Please remember that us H1 users don't have audio or time code embedded in our HS-SDI out, so we need input jacks for both.

Thanks
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Old March 13th, 2007, 12:06 PM   #6
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With absolutely ALL due respect, those prices are way too much for a small fry like me - who still wants to do HD-SDI.
They're hard drives for goodness sake!
Once I find a solution that's significantly less than the cost of my H1, I'll be more inclined to buy.
Until then, a little indy guy like me is stuck with - shutter - HDV.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 12:50 PM   #7
 
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Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ken Diewert View Post
Great to hear this Drew,
Please remember that us H1 users don't have audio or time code embedded in our HS-SDI out, so we need input jacks for both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Roddy View Post
With absolutely ALL due respect, those prices are way too much for a small fry like me - who still wants to do HD-SDI.
They're hard drives for goodness sake!
Ken,

Don't worry. We've got you covered ;) We are also going to be making some pretty exciting announcements at NAB regarding partnerships and features. Our whole goal is to help blur the line between digital cinema and indie/prosumer camera systems.

Matthew,

Our system is and has to be a WHOLE LOT more than just hard drives. The ICON requires some incredibly sophisticated logic, similar to a powerful PC, reduced to the size of a shoe box. Thats also not even considering the unique functionality including 7" LCD touchscreen for control and playback, removable/hot-swappable media packs with rolling cache, etc.

We will be demonstrating capture quality comparisons at our booth at NAB. Be sure to stop by to see for yourself the many advantages of HD SDI capture.

Thanks,
Drew
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Old March 13th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #9
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Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.
Bill, I have shot many times with various HDV cameras, including the XL-H1 (which is my favorite of the bunch, so far). The HDV format does have a lot of built in value, but to compare 4:2:2 signal to Mpeg2 and refer to "small losses" is just misleading.

You're talking about the difference between 1400+megabit/sec (XL-H1 HD-SDI), and 25megabit/sec (XL-H1 HDV/tape). The difference between 1400 and 25 is not a "small one." If you happen to be shooting a low-motion scene with your exposure dead-on, and less than 6 stops of contrast in the lighting, then yes the picture will look "pretty darn good." But that's where the buck stops (in my opinion). If you add under/overexposure into the equation, high motion, high contrast, etc.. it's no longer pretty darn good. Some of the "look" is going to be subjective, so maybe what is acceptable to one person isn't acceptable to another, but no one can deny the mathematical differences between 1400 and 25, and the fact that when you reduce a signal that is 1400Mb to 25Mb, you are throwing away a TON of data.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 07:27 PM   #10
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Drew,

If you're looking for someone to beta test for you...let me know ! We'll be at NAB and stop by !
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Old March 13th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Drew Harding View Post
Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew

Maybe I'm mis-reading, but the Russian unit is going for $6400 and provides a platform to record "un-compressed" HD-SDI. Your unit, according to your site, is going to sell for upwards of $30k. While your "pro-sumer compressed" version will sell for around $10k.

That prompts a whole lot of questions. And as someone who doesn't have a lot of money to spend and is prepping a VERY low budget feature - I would love to find an uncompressed HD-SDI solution. If it's compressed - I'll just stick with my Firestore or go HDV.

I have to agree with Matthew to the extent that the storage system shouldn't out-cost the camera - it's kind of like the tires costing more than the car. I have no doubt that your product will be the Rolls Royce of solutions, but the reality is that the reason a lot of owners (and maybe it was just me) of the XL H1, the most expensive of the "pro-sumer" HDV cameras, bought it was because of it's quality and the fact that we couldn't afford to spend the money required for a low-level HD camera. But we do use these as "professional" cameras and would more than appreciate a cost-like alternative to record the best output possible from our camera.

Hopefully, these types of systems will follow the pattern of the P2 cards and provide more for the cost as time goes on or get cheaper.

Just my .02.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 10:10 PM   #12
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Maybe I'm mis-reading, but the Russian unit is going for $6400 and provides a platform to record "un-compressed" HD-SDI.
I am only vaguely familiar with this Russian device, but I believe it only offers 4:2:2 uncompressed recording. Likewise, they say no mechanical parts, from which I infer that your 20 minute recording space is embedded-- meaning if you need an hour of storage, you must buy three devices. The ICON features media packs-- which means a $10k package (to pick a round number) will include the recorder AND a media pack (which can also be longer than 20 minutes). So expanding your recording space to a few hours involves buying only a couple extra media packs. Plus the ICON offers a removable touchscreen, metadata, file management, etc. 20 minutes of uncompressed 4:2:2 for $6k is indeed a pretty awesome value, and I'm looking forward to seeing one of these in person once they hit the market.

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Originally Posted by Michael Fischler View Post
your "pro-sumer compressed" version will sell for around $10k.
Yes. Let me just stress that we're talking about highbitrate compression-- on the order of HDCAM or better. So while the product may be targeted at the prosumer, the compression will be commensurate with that used to shoot Star Wars.

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Originally Posted by Michael Fischler View Post
prepping a VERY low budget feature - I would love to find an uncompressed HD-SDI solution. If it's compressed - I'll just stick with my Firestore or go HDV.
Again, let me point out, we're talking about extremely light compression. 5-10x the bitrate of HDV, and with much more efficient codecs. Frankly, the uncompressed product isn't targeted at the indie market, because few in the indie market could afford the workflow-- we're talking about a terabyte of storage per HOUR of 1080p uncompressed footage. I don't know how many setups you're doing, or what your shot ratio is, but if you're shooting a few hours of takes/content per day, that's a few thousand dollars PER DAY in just backing up data to firewire drives. Not even online storage. Then you need to address editing-- working uncompressed 1080p is extremely expensive. You can work with proxies and do an online conform later, which is cheaper, but again all of this stuff still costs lots of money-- but basically the jist of what we've found is that many indie users want uncompressed recording, but virtually none can afford it. High bitrate compresion is a good solution to this, as it retains a vast amount of the data and flexibility of an uncompressed workflow, but offers 1/10th the cost for storage and is much more managable for realtime editing as well. Even HDCAMSR 4:4:4 recording isn't uncompressed (it's around 3:1).

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Originally Posted by Michael Fischler View Post
I have to agree with Matthew to the extent that the storage system shouldn't out-cost the camera - it's kind of like the tires costing more than the car. I have no doubt that your product will be the Rolls Royce of solutions...
That is an acceptable paradigm in higher end cinema recording-- where each element poses a significant cost. A $140k 35mm body, with a $60k lens, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of film run through it during the course of production. Or a $100k F950 tethered to an SRW1 that also costs $100k, with a $30k lens on the body. And you're right.. it's a less familiar paradigm as you get into the lower budgets, but I think most indie users who are actually shooting films understand the idea that the camera is just a fraction of the budget. You have tripods, dollies, lights, grip equipment, crew, meals, permits, etc. I wish we could get the compressed ICON to the point where it was only $1500-- but to offer the kind of functionality we're building in, that just isn't feasible. We are working very hard to get the pricing as low as possible.. as we know the XL-H1 is already at the upper reaches of many budgets. Ultimately, it won't be available to everyone, but we're working to make it feasible for as many as possible-- and even for those who can't afford to buy one for their XL-H1, it might sense enough for important shots to rent one for a day (or sell the client on the idea of justifying the slight budget increase for rental).


Let me stress I'm NOT trying to be critical at all, and we *GREATLY* value this sort of feedback and dialogue. As you guys let us know where you're coming from (what your budget is, that you'd like to record uncompressed, etc), I'm trying to let you know where we're coming from-- so we can find a middle ground that empowers as many filmmakers as possible.
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Old March 14th, 2007, 01:36 PM   #13
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Adam/ Drew,

I'm sorry I won't get to NAB to see the product, but the 2k I save will be a deposit toward buying it later...

Michael/ Matthew,

I'm pretty darn sure that if someone could make an HD-SDI Firestore for 2k, they would. And maybe someday someone will. I'm no techno geek, but uncompressed 1080i is a lot of data coming at you very fast. I've been listening to people talk about this for over a year, and this is the closest thing I've heard to portable and affordable so far.

These new units are something that we should be able to rent for a couple of days when we need it, and you will then have the option of using it without having to buy it. Right now, Wafian is the only option at 15k, and it sure doesn't look to portable to me. This capture solution just extends the range of the H1 and the others that have HD-SDI outputs.

And I don't like to sound harsh, but I've never thought of the Russians as being of the leading edge of digital media technology.
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Old March 14th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #14
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Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.
I'm sorry, Bill. My bad. I meant to put a "wink" at the end of my statement. I actually LOVE HDV. I really do! My comment was meant to be sarcastic because I SHOULD be happy with HDV. My only - only - thought is that... if I CAN go HD-SDI out, with it's beautiful 4:2:2 colour space and added resolution, I sure would like to.
I'm used to BetaSP, which I think has much better colours, in my opinion, so DV25 always distracts me until I get a bit of CC into it.

We all want something just a LITTLE better, don't we?

Drew:
Don't worry. I'm sure your prices are in line with what you're delivering. Not everyone can afford the coolest stuff. I'll just have to wait until I can. Thanks for the note.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 04:20 PM   #15
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Adam -

The XL H1 is a 4:2:2 workspace - so that's all I would expect - and the issue isn't about editing in uncompressed video, it's having the opportunity to on-line and have a resulting master created with uncompressed video AND the best possible starting point of going film out if that is an opportunity presented to us (most, if not all the films we make are aimed at the festival market). Now the arguement could be made that the cost the ICON could be spread out over several projects, but that still supposes having all the money to make the initial investment in the first place.

NOW - if you REALLY want to make an impression, PM me and perhaps we could arrange to Beta test your product in a real-time work setting - we start shooting in Los Angeles for 2 weeks on April 23rd (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) :-)

Ken -

Not sure that Firestore would ever spend the time or resources to develop a 2k storage device for the XL H1. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was a thread the specifically discussed that point. Something about preferring to go after the next bigger, better thing getting all the attention (sorry, I just don't remember all the specifics). And I'm not trying to be critical of Firestore - it's just good business sense.

As far as the Russians being cutting edge - LOL - perhaps. But it wasn't too long ago that Made in Japan was a big joke and today Made in China is becoming less of one. Given the global access to information regarding technological innovation, I think it would be short-sighted to presume that innovation or break-through would be limited to a few select areas of the globe.

All -

Ultimately, for me anyway, it's about getting the best possible picture out of the camera that I can for exhibition. If that has to be HDV then I need to be able to exploit that to the greatest degree possible. I have a camera with HD-SDI out and have a belief that I can get a better product because of it. However, that doesn't seem to be possible at the moment because there really isn't anything out there to support it; at least to the degree that I can afford. Of course there are some solutions, but again, not cheap - an HDCAM deck costs around $60k to buy and to rent, around $1800/wk. A corresponding Mac setup might be cheaper, but no more portable.

Perhaps my complaint should be directed at Canon for providing something that has great potential but no "inexpensive" practical solution... :-)

Last edited by Michael Fischler; March 19th, 2007 at 05:10 PM.
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