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Old May 27th, 2006, 01:25 AM   #436
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It could be causal then, as it is for gastric ulcers. There is something doctors can give you called triple antibiotic therapy that kills h. pylori in the stomach, don't know about the intestinal tract. But also look into the silver, it is a fantastic antibiotic. Do a web search and decide for yourself.

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Old May 27th, 2006, 01:36 AM   #437
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The question then becomes one of; without the expoitation, would any newbie filmmakers be able to get to the point in their journeys where they would ever get paid? Are these exploitative producers actually the gatekeepers to the professional world? Are you trying to deny new filmmakers work by disallowing these jobs to be offered?

Devil's advocate by nature, I'd just like to get you to look at this differently, you seem fairly locked in your thinking about this.

I have no reel...would you hire me? I have my own camera and know how to light and shoot. I can also do sound and direct and edit + basic special FX and makeup and hair. But until I have a couple of free jobs, I have no reel or credibility...seems like a catch 22.
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Old May 27th, 2006, 01:45 AM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole McDonald

I have no reel...would you hire me?
As I said earlier, if you can't pay, you take what you can get! We could split hairs about this forever. It doesn't matter if you have a reel because if it was on a project with unknowns and if what you did is not something that can be seen that you did, what kind of proof is that? How can I see what you did as a P.A., grip, etc.. Any of that could be made up without a way to verify it. You could also have the same name as someone who really did work on it. People lie on their reels and resumes all the time but when references are asked for, they're in big trouble. I am talking about what is a fact if you want to actually get a job on a real show. I have only gotten jobs on big PAYING projects soley based on the fact that I either had resume items with experience at that level or I had references who had also worked on that level. It's also about who you know. You must have verifiable and worthy credits to get the top positions.
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Old May 27th, 2006, 04:40 AM   #439
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Ways to get started... (long)

Cole and others,

What you should probably do is a short film, on your own. That's really what short films are for -- your calling card and instant reel to show what you and your equipment can do. Enlist friends, not strangers, to participate, or go to a community college film class where the students have a non-exploitive mutual co-op system of working together on eachother's films.

My seven and nine year old sons and one of their friends have made several very cool little films with the family DV camera. With a little bit of Dad's help they cut their films together on Premiere Pro, then actually created cool scores for them in Adobe Audition and then mastered DVDs. One of their films had the entire crew at the production company where I work ROFL.

My friend Chuck Cirino was nominated for three Webbys this year for his site Weird TV (I think it's actually www.weird.tv). On that site you can see an extremely condensed version of the spaghetti western he shot on 8 mm film when he was still a very young boy. It's pretty damn good for his age and the primitive tools avaiable then.

He grew up making more films, then got a job at a TV station, learned the video tech stuff, then started applying his talents to local commercials. Later Chuck went on to direct Jay Jay the Jet Plane and other such Saturday morning stuff, did some really great local commercials (Fred Rated at Federated with Shadoe Stevens) shot and syndicated the Weird TV series, directed a campy sci-fi T&A feature and has written scores for over 40 features, most low budget but so what.

Chuck just got hired to do comedy pieces for HBO's streaming AOL site, whatever that is. But he started with the knack for JUST DOING IT that you'll see in his spaghetti western and he's always up to SOMETHING because of his love of the craft and art of filmmaking.

My path was quite different. I got started by long-term leasing a really, really good camera for its time (JVC KY-D29 with the D-9 format) and a good Sennheiser 416, then renting that package for $200/day off ads in the Hollywood Reporter -- cheap then for 2/3" 3-chip 4:2:2 digital camera with a good mic.

Let me be clear, they were renting the camera, not hiring me, but I always wanted to come along anyway, and they usually let me. At first I was the guy who ran batteries back and forth. But I learned like a little sponge, absorbing everything, for example the strange and wonderful vocabulary of the grips and gaffers -- stingers and C-47's and so forth -- as they set the lights. I also had them teach me little things like how to roll up cables over and under like they did. I was so pathetically green, but I had this truly awesome camera and unquenchable curiosity, so there I was getting paid to learn.

I watched as the DPs white balanced the camera through colored gels to warm or cool the color temperature of the picture, I peeked at the monitor as much as I could to see the magic they were creating with light, shadow and exposure and saw how my theoretical knowledge was applied in the real world. I observed the location sound guys very closely and asked as many questions as I could get away with and still not be 86'd.

Then one day somebody asked me to mix sound since I wasn't doing much of anything else. I was so scared of clipping that those levels were way too low, but I, and my levels, had nowhere to go but up. From watching pros and fooling around myself I became a good sound man, a decent camera operator and I even have some good DP credits (check www.americawestandasone.com).

I can't remember ever working for free -- I couldn't afford to with the lease payments on my camera and other gear, not to mentio na wife, an expanding number of kids, and then there was that pesky mortgage, but I always tried to give very good value for what I was paid.

I doubt if this way into the biz would work for someone with any type of SD camera anymore, and it would be tough in the crowded HDV market, but if you got the Sony XDCAM you could probably make your monthly payment and plenty more, getting paid while you learned.

I would say though that the camera rental business became much tougher when the and XL1, the PD-150 and then the DVX-100 came out, as they were really good yet inexpensive cameras and everybody who didn't have one had a cousin who did so they didn't need to rent.

For the last two and a half years I've been primarily working as a development writer, but that's another story, although now I have the JVC HD-100 and still get the occasional paying camera gig as well as doing location sound from time to time for old client/friends.

Let me also clarify that I have absolutely no bone to pick with those willing to work for free to get experience and a reel. My objection is only to those who exploit that willingness. The bottom line is that my hat is off to anyone who loves making moving pictures and is willing to make the sacrifices it takes to do so. Peace...

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Old May 27th, 2006, 12:08 PM   #440
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My previous post was for illustration only - "Devil's Advocate".

I have a reel and the shorts I've done were less learning than I'm used to, so I've gone ahead and made a feature (it's in post). While I do see your argument, I think these exploitative producers (which the originator of this post may or may not be - unless you have evidence to the contrary) and their revolving crew of various people looking for experience are an important part of the ecosystem. They give unknown entities a way to get some credits for themselves, possibly introduce them to some larger name talent...even if just in passing, they then can say "I worked on project x with you".

I'm unsure why you are angry with these folks, if it's just on an intellectual disagreement, then this argument is a good excercise. If it's a personal experience in which you've been exploited by one of them in the past, I apologize for playing the devil's advocate...but I feel it was a necessary conversation.

This thread has debated the validty of the original poster since the second post. What research was done on this individual? Having been personally attacked on his first post to this board ever, I don't know that I would respond either, having taken the feedback that this board had immediately given. The reality is, if he's currently in production, he'll be too busy to come here and debate and stand up for himself. Nor would I want to, were I him.

I feel I've illustrated the counter point to your arguments well and will move on to other threads, thank you for your time in debating this with me in a publc forum.
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Old May 27th, 2006, 01:03 PM   #441
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NYC area Videographer needed ASAP!

Hello -

I'm finishing editing a feature film in HD that was shot in LA but is supposed to be NYC and the producers are in desperate need of some NYC broll in either 720p24 (HVX) or another HD format that can be transferred to 720p easily. We don't need a ton of shots and it should only take one night or so. The real perk is the film already has distribution through Lion's Gate and has a slated release on video nationwide in Blockbuster, Hollywood Video etc. etc. for December so it should be a nice looking credit - there is pay but only $100 plus the shipping cost of the footage (it's low low budget but looks great, officially the first feature film to be shot on the HVX so you can imagine the budget since the total cost was scaled down to fit the shooting costs).

Here are the shots we need (EVERYTHING is NIGHT TIME):
-Skyscrapers, famous bridges, anything scenic of the city
-TAXICABS, cars, traffic
-foot traffic, show lots of people, subway stuff would really, really be great
-A great bonus would be a timelapse from sunset to night over a nice wideshot of the city

Please let me know as soon as you can - we need the footage back here in LA by June 1st or 2nd if possible. Thanks!
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Old May 27th, 2006, 03:52 PM   #442
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Seeking actors --

We're shooting a long video in Los Angeles August 5 through August 20. (Not going to shoot every day during that stretch, but that's the window.)

Seeking actors for 3 speaking roles:

Richard, an elderly but vigorous man with a commanding presence -- could be as young as late 50s, up to almost any age as long as still healthy and strong. This is a major role with substantial screen time. We've negotiated deferred payment for every other actor in this piece -- but for this role we'd pay upfront, for the right actor.

We also haven’t cast a mugger (male, 20-50) and a pimp (male, 25-40) – those are the only speaking roles still open. Deferred payment for both.
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Old May 28th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #443
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The Ecosystem

Cole,

I liked the ecosystem analogy. But don't forget that ecosystems include vultures and pidgeons too. I've never been conned into working for free and by the way, I have no anger about this. I'm just sticking up for a concept I hold dear, which I call human dignity.

I owned a nightclub and some evenings I had famous bands like John Lee Hooker or whoever, but also I frequently had local acts. The trend then, and I presume still, is to make the bands pay for their stage time. Other club owners suggested I do this, but I always paid bands something because, having been in a couple of bands, I knew how hard it was. Call me nuts, but I wanted to encourage each and every one of them. Then I was standing by the little guy, now I'm standing up for him, a strange impulse I get from time to time. So no anger, just a bit of righteous, and hopefully not too self-righteous, indignation.

Cole, you have finished shooting a feature and by the slogan at the bottom of your posts I suppose that you got people to work for free, and thus you were able to make a movie that would otherwise be impossible to make. I really don't mean in any way to slag off guerilla filmmakers such as yourself. I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts themselves on the line to create a movie, and especially those who do a feature.

But very unlike your situation, this ad professed an extremely high level of industry penetration, they tried to make themselves sound somewhat big time, they were bringing a crew from Chicago to LA for a month, so clearly were at least modestly financed, and yet they wanted to exploit (mostly young) people desirous or even desperate to break into the biz.

My objection to exploitation by people at this level has absolutely no bearing on legitimate guerilla filmmakers like you, so if you felt unfairly tarred by a brush applied perhaps a bit too broadly, my apologies.

I hope your feature is awesome. I agree with your premise that you can make movies that look like a million for next to nothing now with the new HDV that may prove marketable. That is my personal ambition as well. When you're done with post production, shoot off a DVD to the company I work for, we have been a TV company so far, but want to start a film division. Our website is www.tmcent.tv and my e-mail there is tmcpartland@tmcent.tv. Let me extend this invitation to anyone here making films or TV product.

I love a good spirited debate on a forum like this. I used to mix it up a bit on the Cow HDV forum, but the moderators 86'd everybody that got the least bit frisky, I got personally flamed by the owner. Thanks to the moderators here for giving us the freedom they do, and thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread, both pro and con regarding my stance.

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Old May 28th, 2006, 07:53 AM   #444
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Tip, thanks also for your participation in this...I'm beginning to think the optimal situation is somewhere in the middle here.

I agree that there may be "work for free" vultures out there, but this guy is fresh out of film/art school in Chicago: William Pissari. My feeling is that he's putting to gether a Doc and has had the opportunity to get interviews (on the street or what not) with the big names mentioned rather than "working with them", so may be using the names of celebs he's had the opportunity to interview to get more help making his Doc...which is probably legitimately a shoestring budget Doc. He is not listed on the IMDB, so seemingly hasn't done any recognizable projects before this one.

I still wonder if the newbie filmmaker would get opportunities to break into this industry that is traditionally very difficult to get into. I'm currently an IT professional. I didn't start in any mailrooms or have any traditional training to get here. I started as a hobbyist and taught myself, then found a position as a lead IT at a comapny that was picking the low hanging fruit (no degree = cheaper). After 3 years of this, I had a resume that said I was already an IT professional with experience. This got me a position at a company that pays the industry standard. Without the vulture company, I wouldn't have a house and all my nice cameras and computers. So I directly benefitted from a less than ethical company where I wouldn't have been able to without them.

So, where I agree with you ethically, the reality of the industry may require these vultures as a gatekeeper to the industry...the "I've paid my dues" paradigm.
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Old May 28th, 2006, 03:15 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole McDonald
....I'm currently an IT professional......
Well, that explains part of your desensitized view of this situation. It sounds like you work mostly on your own independent productions and not for others. How many outside projects have you worked on other than for friends? I have noticed that most people that have other full time jobs that provide a steady income usually are not as sensitive to this issue and you are no exception. With your situation and having a steady income with something else, if you don't make ANY money through what you produce, it's not really an issue because like most of us you're probably not producing just for the potentional money but because you really like it. However, when this is your only income and especially when you are invested in alot of gear, I think you can see our concern. I bet if you were on an IT board and someone was wanting IT work done for free you would have an issue with that but I wouldn't necessarily be concerned with it because I don't do IT for a living. Do you see my point? But you are not the only one. I think we all do this in a way because people usually don't take a serious interest or have concerns about things that don't dramatically or directly affect them. The solution is everyone should get paid for their services if that's what they offer it as no matter what they do. If production begins to take too much of your time for whatever reason(s) you always have your steady income of your IT business to rely on. Whether you have another steady income or not, you need to get burned a couple of times to really feel it and understand why we become so cautious. We can recognize red flags by things that just don't sound right because we have something to compare it to. Real high level projects by reputable production companies pay their crews!

Last edited by James Emory; May 28th, 2006 at 03:46 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2006, 03:35 PM   #446
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See:

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Old May 28th, 2006, 05:02 PM   #447
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"Let us know about your availability, whether you have transportation and if you have a camera or other equipment of your own (lights, sound, tripod)."

come on people !!! any time somebody needs a cameraman and the only requirements seems to be your availability, transportation and what equipment you own/have - YOU gotta ask questions ?? ..

on the bright side the producer is up front with FREE - no pay .. so you know up front before responding you will get NOTHING ... in that area i can't say anything negative about producer ...
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Old May 28th, 2006, 05:03 PM   #448
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take a ad out in the LA dramaLog ...or LA casting call ...
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Old May 28th, 2006, 08:36 PM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Emory
Well, that explains part of your desensitized view of this situation. It sounds like you work mostly on your own independent productions and not for others. How many outside projects have you worked on other than for friends?
I was an independant DJ/Karoake MC for 3 years and delivered pizza for 9 years as an in dependant contractor. I have been in IT for the past 9 years. I have been involved with at least a dozen wedding shoots both as the primary videographer and as an assistant, three shorts and now a feature for myself. I am also a business owner and have been in the past, I've driven a school bus and written software as well as busboy, spot welder and dishwasher. (not necessarily in that order) I went to school for Anthropology and am painfully close to my Bachelor's degree. I currently have my Associate's and that has been working for me. I currently make 60k+ a year, but used to live in my car and eat from dumpsters.

I started the first web development firm in central MN (AFAIK) in 1991 and was requred to live hand to mouth for 3 years before I ran out of money (We made an error and entered the market too early). My partners who were able to hold out for longer made a killing within the next 2 years based on getting the jobs the other new firms couldn't by winning the clients who weren't prepared to pay for an unknown advertising medium.

I understand what you are saying, I have been there, and I don't think I've recieved anything good in my professional life that didn't start with being exploited. It made me hungry for more, willing to work harder. Knowing when to move on or ask for recompense is the key, if one continues to work for these producers, then I question whether the problem lay with the producers. How does the Kenny Roger's song go?
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Old May 30th, 2006, 01:22 PM   #450
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Camera Operator / Videographer Needed For Sat June 3rd in PA

I am taping a dance performance in the Pottstown PA area. My second cameraman can't make it so you would need to operate my gl2. It will be on a tripod and I have a lens controller. If you feel more comfortable with your own camera, that's OK too...as long as it's at least a 3 chiper. The performance starts at 3:00 and will run about 3 hours with intermission...possibly shorter. You will need to be there at 2:00. I will pay $150 cash.

The date is Saturday June 3.
For more info, e-mail me at amyandjim@comcast.net
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