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Old January 16th, 2009, 09:10 PM   #1
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cardiff, CA
Posts: 3
HDV -> fast-Edit in ?X? -> Online-with-ProRes ??????


I'm searching for a Edit Workflow that is as fast as Standard DV yet can finish in HD (ProRes).

HDV -> ?- fast offline edit -> ProRes recapture/master

***Does anyone know of something that works?? ... that might work?***

-Both HDV and ProRes take way too long to render the kinds of layered video I edit.
-My current field edit laptop is not powerful and struggles with HD material.

-Convert HDV into a format that is small enough to render layers and effects quickly
-Use a format that keeps HDVs 1440x1080 aspect so that motion and space effects done in the rough cut will still apply to the recaptured ProRes files
-Use a format with timecode that will match back to the HDV for re-capturing in ProRes.

Does anyone have experience - ideas - other requirements - any leads?

Thank you MUCH,
Ralph Chaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #2
Inner Circle
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,463
There's an old saying that you can have it good, you can have it cheap, or you can have it fast. Sometimes you can even have two out of three, but you can't have all three.

It sounds to me like you want all three, and I'm just not sure that's possible given the state of the technology.

Most likely you'll have to give up the cheap (weak laptop) to get the other two (ProRes HD, quickly).

Cineform might be an alternative to ProRes, but to be honest I''m not an expert on the Apple workflow.

Somebody will no doubt correct me if I'm off base here.
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2009, 12:42 AM   #3
Major Player
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 628
Why do you want to edit offline anymore? Unless you're in an Avid based environment it makes no sense (or unless you film out - moot point because you said HDV).

Pro-Res was designed to eliminate offline editing. In fact, it is overkill for HDV. I agree, toss out the macbook or older apple and buy a mac book pro. They are plenty fast enough to edit and encode in pro-res HD. Just purchase a G-RAID2 in RAID0 config and you're set.

Christopher Drews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2009, 03:19 AM   #4
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornsay Durham UK
Posts: 1,906
My workflow is as follows:

1:Shoot HDV 1080i 50i on the S270 and Z7 to tape and transcend 16gb 133x compact flash.

2:Tape goes on shelf for back-up.

3:Import CF files into mac via clipwrap which wraps them to .mov files. I use a macbook pro and i-mac with g-tech raid-2 drive.

4:Edit in final cut studio 2 at HDV 1080i 50i with up to 6 streams. (HDV is same bit rate as DV so no speed difference) Export OMF to pro tools do final dub and master Aiff mix file which then goes back onto master FCP timeline for export.

5:Export master file in pro res 422 1080i 25p 1440x1080 (or 1920x1080 if you want full HD)

6:Produce whatever downconverted files I need from the pro res master (flash/streaming/ipod etc)
Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/
Gary Nattrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 04:34 PM   #5
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cardiff, CA
Posts: 3
Thanks very much for the replies and info. I think success is near. It looks like the hitch in my flow is the drives... perhaps. I'm running off of a non-raid - one drive for the media only.

But first, I'm a little confused about (1) how even though HDV is the same size as DV, it DOES take much longer to render; and (2) how ProRes is much slower than HDV even though I've heard the opposite on many forums.

*I've methodically tested and documented render times for HDV, ProRes, and DV-based effects and the results run contrary to what I'm hearing on forums! Perhaps I have a hole in my method... perhaps it's a hole in my understanding of this stuff?

*Can someone straighten me out on this? ... or reconsider what we tend to think?

Thank you!

HERE ARE THE BASIC RESULTS... the full chart (800k) with screenshots can be found at:


(*Data on platform, footage, settings, etc. will follow)

Sequence: 6 second dissolve:
HDV = 0:20
ProRes = 0:22
HDV with ProRes render: 0:14
Standard DV = :04

Sequence: 15 secs. with 4 layers: 1 background, with 3 Pics-In-Pic. Feather applied to the top three layers.
HDV = 2:32
ProRes = 5:00
HDV with ProRes render: 2:17
Standard DV = 0:23 secs.


MacPro; Dual Xeon - 2.66; Radeon 3879 Graphics; 3 GB RAM

HDV shot on a Z1U. For HDV - a straight capture; for ProRes - using the ProRes codec; for DV - exporting the source shots from HDV using the NTSC DV/DVCPro setting

Properties were:
HDV: 3.1 MB/sec.
ProRes: 14.5 - 15.012 MB/sec.
DV: 3.6 MB/sec (greater than HDV...?)

Renders were completed with the same codec as each timeline except for testing the ProRes codec rendering on the HDV timeline.
Ralph Chaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #6
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Location: Iowa City, Iowa
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As your own test results seem to bear out, HDV with ProRes render may be the best of both worlds (low data rate & cheap acquisition of HDV + high color space of ProRes).
Benjamin Hill is offline   Reply

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