Someone straighten me out on HDVCinema at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > High Definition Video Editing Solutions

High Definition Video Editing Solutions
For all HD formats including HDV, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD and others.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 3rd, 2003, 11:05 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Francisco CA
Posts: 386
Someone straighten me out on HDVCinema

Reading all these posts, I am now more confused than ever as to what the exact workflow is for Steve's HDVCinema, and probably because I don't know what it is, I don't for the life of me see what the advantages of it are. Could someone who's bought it please lay out the processes in simple English so that we can all understand it and have a meaningful discussion.

I think it should be made clear to everyone at this point that to do an offline (proxy) edit of HDV footage on the Mac in FCP, you don't need any plugins or packages, just a couple of shareware utilities off the internet, and then you can edit in REAL TIME. You can use Pixlet or any other offline format you chose, including anamorphic DV. The one missing like has been going back to the camera, that is, recompressing back to MPEG2TS. It now appears that this can possibly also be done for free using a shareware utility and alterning it's input paramaters, I will know this for sure in a few days.

To correct anothe inaccuracy, Pixlet also DOES allow you to edit in real-time on FCP, you just cannot do real-time effects, which doesn't bother me in the slightest, we've been working that way in DV for years. The advantages of seeing what you will be getting while you edit far outweigh not being able to have real-time effects, but this is my personal opinion.

I'm not trying to knock Steve's package here, I'm sure it has great merit. I'm just trying to understand clearly what the advantages are, If it's better than what I'm doing now, I'll buy it, but I don't buy things I don't understand, and until now I haven't seen a clearly laid out explanation of the workflow from A to Z, just contradicting bits and pieces of information

All the best
__________________
Paul
Paul Mogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 12:42 PM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 109
I'm buying Steve's product.
Although I sure Paul's right about being able to edit offline for free on FCP, the HVcinema advantage is that the full rez Mpeg-2 files are "waiting in the wings" and ready to be reconnected once the offline is complete.

Although I would prefer it (it saves a step), I personally don't see the big advantage of seeing the full res. image in the canvas.
I would much rather save a render cycle then see the 720p. That's where I think it boils down (HDC vs. Pixlet). For me its also size, 73 hours x 32gigs will add up.

That said, the manual demuxing process has me a bit worried. I starring down the barrel of a huge project with a deadline. I CERTAINLY also hope that my HDC timeline will be FCP5 campatable.

Maybe part of what's happening here is the same thing that happens when new technology arrives -- everybody's nervous. Everybody waiting to see what Apple and Sony will do. How many HD1/10 owners bought HDC? Steve's theory works -- it was Avid's theory in the 90's and the film industry bought it.

I will certianly report. If steve can get me the App in time I'll have a short edit done by Sunday.

-Steven Galvano
Steven Galvano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 02:16 PM   #3
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 11
Succinct and clear workflow description, PLEASE.

And minimum hardware specs.

Lay it out like any other retail package publisher would--for us dumb monkeys!
You can stay quiet on 'copyrighted secret formulas' (i.e. which exact eleven herbs and spices), but I've been over the lists and still don't get the impresson with absolute certainty whether $200 will add HD editing capabilities to my existing FCP 4 system or not.

What OS (Panther only or Jaquar suffice)? What hard drives? What minimum proc mhz? What other software components (Do you or do you not need the $5K Heuris package?)?

I'm with those who won't buy anything that isn't clearly detailed...spell it out for the editors, not the technicians please. These are Mac folk, you know ;)

Oh, and thanks for doing so. This solution works as advertised and you'll soon have lots of positive word of mouth working for you...
Shane Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 02:48 PM   #4
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
There's nothing "secret." Read my HDV editing story at Video Systems.

Here's a nice summary posted a week ago by Frederic:

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : HDV Cinema:
PROS:
- Realtime FX in FCP
- Smaller overall size (Proxy + MPEG2) compared to Pixlet
- Minimal format conversion for quality purposes (MPEG2 stays as source)
- Faster to editing (m2t >> m2v >> proxy, assuming that proxies are generated quicker than pixlet)
- Faster to back to deck/camera (edit project online >> convert to m2t)
- Realtime editing on slower machines (Pixlet requires G4 1 GHz)

CONS:
- $200 and rising. (Wasn't it $100 a week ago?)
- Offline to online process (time consuming)
- No live output to NTSC or HD monitor
- Must go back to online even if the final product is DVD widescreen
-->>>
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 03:39 PM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 11
I read the specs on the website...

and I'm sold. If it works as promised on (again, spec the hardware requirements, please) our machines, i.e. a G4 workstation and hopefully my TiBook, then we're good. Says you don't need Heuris with the provided software (pretty amazing if true--and WHY Apple hasn't done this already is beyond me, damn, sell it to them man and let them include it in FCP/QT).

One big question:

Our company wants to be able to capture/import the full quality HD 720p footage then export it as frames (i.e. Targa files) to our SGI compositors (Inferno/Flame/Fire systems). Will this package's 'add-on software for OS X' allow for such a thing via FCP4?
Shane Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 03:40 PM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,707
If anyone has any specific questions regarding HDcinema - I'll answer them via email. I can't come on here 1,000 times a day and check every new posting, so write to me directly.

chris.murphy@willowstudios.com

Chris Murphy
Christopher C. Murphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 04:36 PM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Francisco CA
Posts: 386
I think that people just want to know simply the steps you take, one by one, to edit using this package, and how you get the final footage back to tape. If we could lay this out once, I think that would answer most questions.

I too, would really like to use this package if it works better than the methods I'm currently using to edit, including Pixlet, which I like very much, but am not pushing in any way to be "the best way to edit".

I'll start it off if you like, I'd suggest something in the format of:

1) You capture your footage from the camera using DVHScap, a free utility you can download from the Apple website.

2) You demux the camera's native MPEG2_TS footage to MPEG2_PS (program stream) format using the "mpgtx" shareware utility, (or whatever the package suggests you use) that you download from the internet.

3) You convert the footge to an MPEG2 format that Apple's Quicktime (and FCP) is able to import, using a custom program Steve wrote, ....(insert program name I don't know the details here if that's what happens).

4) You convert this footage to another format (whatever that is that is reccomended), that is imported into FCP, and that is what you actually edit. You do this convertion using (insert program name here and give file format and resolution converted to).

5) Once you've finished editing, you point the data on your timeline to ....(I don't know if this is the MPEG2 PS data on your hard drive or what)

6) You render everything in your timeline, this makes the stuff on your hard drive exactly the same (in terms of edits) as the stuff you just edited in FCP

7) You output your finished movie in (insert format details) format

8) You somehow get your final footage back to MPEG2_TS format for output to the camera (give details of how that's done and what software you use on what computers)

The above is probably completely wrong, but that's the best I've been able to glean from all the explanations I've seen posted so far. It took me 5 minutes or less to write this.
__________________
Paul
Paul Mogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 05:04 PM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
Darren Kelly said re. Steve's workflow: <<<-- ...You take the video segment and convert it to the standard garden variety DV codec, which you import into FCP and edit as if it were regular DV footage...-->>>

So bottom line is: if you want realistically real-time editing with effects, *offline* it to DV, edit, then *online* from NLE back to HD.

This is what I do on PC. It's interesting to hear that Mac folks does the same.
Alex Raskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 05:51 PM   #9
New Boot
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 11
Keep it coming...

This thread is really helping tie things together, a sort of reader's digest of several other threads--thanks to all contributors.

I see the confusion on the offline/online side of things. One quick question if I may reiterate. It seems that if acquistion and transcoding to another format are all that are required by the Mac user (i.e., pull in from the cam/DVHS deck), all you need is the Apple utility, a demux-ing shareware app (it makes a program stream from the transport stream?) and Quicktime Pro for the transcode to ****(i.e. file sequence)? I thought the HDCinema software replaced Heuris for that magic bullet that made program streams from the import, or am I missing something?

If thats the case then you have a very inexpensive solution for working with HDV in compositors (After Effects, Combustion, Flame/Inferno), right? I mean, you might have to render some elements, but hey...
Shane Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 06:51 PM   #10
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
OK -- folks. Here it is.

1) Capture HDV, via FireWire, from your camcorder using Apple’s DVHSCap utility. The captured MPEG-2 TS file can only be played by the VLC Player, not Apple’s QuickTime Player.

2) Demux (split) the captured file into MPEG audio and MPEG-2 video files. The JVC MPEG-2 file is “repaired” so it can be played by Apple’s QuickTime Player. << My plug-in does the repair. Without my HDVbridge plug-in you can NOT import MPEG-2 into FCP. >>

3) Convert the MPEG audio file to an AIFF audio file.

4) Convert the MPEG-2 video file to a Proxy video file. The file is reduced by a factor of 10. One hour of MPEG-2 requires about 8.3 gigabytes, but only 850 megabytes of Proxy video. This step supports batch conversion. << It's not anamorphic DV as claimed by someone, it's Apple's OffineRT. >>

You will not need the MPEG-2 video files until your edit is done. You might want to store your MPEG-2 files on a FireWire hard disk. Disk speed is of no importance.

5) Import the AIFF and Proxy files into Final Cut Pro.

6) Edit as usual. Everything that would be real-time with DV/OfflineRT will be real-time with the Proxy video. It’s recommended that color correction not be performed on Proxy video.

7) Relink the Proxy clips in the Timeline with the HD MPEG-2 clips. Perform color correction now. MPEG-2 HD clips will be decoded by Final Cut Pro and displayed on your RGB monitor and on an NTSC or HD monitor if connected. << Yes, you can see your work in HD, and at full quality unlike with Pixlet. >>

8) Export an HD uncompressed file from Final Cut Pro. << Note, 6-frame GOP MPEG-2 has only been decoded at this point. >>

9) Encode this file as 15-frame GOP HD MPEG-2. << Note, this is the ONLY encoding to MPEG-2. >> You can play this file with Apple’s QuickTime Player. <<Without my HDVviaduct plug-in, you can NOT encode HD MPEG-2. >>

10) Optionally, convert to HDV format video using Womble under VPC. (This is the additional $120 or $250 of software.)

11) Optionally, use Apple’s DVHSCap to utility to record, via FireWire, back to your HDV camcorder.

<< Note, you do not need the $5000 Huris package unless you want to go to D-VHS. >>


Everything works on a G3 through G5. Everything works under 10.2 and 10.3. Everything works with FCP v3 and v4.

Everything here is consistent with my postings to date.

Everything is consistent with Fredric's pros/cons posted last week.

And everything is documented by my 55-page Production Guide.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 08:14 PM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,707
Ok, I've been publicly silent until this moment regarding Steve's product and also the general discussion regarding alternatives. I'll say this..

1) I bought Steve's product (the formerly named 4HDV).

2) The guides are really good, but I still haven't gotten the demuxing to work with his "MoreMissingTools" part. However, MPGTXWRAP has worked for me.

3) I didn't get the support I was hoping for out of the gate from Steve, but after I complained to him - he stepped up efforts.

4) Not to defend eveyone who feels offended by someone on this list (Steve, Darren, Paul etc.), but everyone might want to take a chill-pill. Seriously, just think of the shit going down in the world...this list has ended up being the outlet for some angst. (I'm including myself - I need to be nicer too.) Let's turn towards the positive and we'll want to come here just as much to see what's posted...no, more! Steve, you said something about being nice...it's not a good goal. It really is though..think about it. Some of your customers are being a pain, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

5) I've had some people on the list email me and I've told them what I think about HDcinema. It's my hope that Steve is successful because it benefit's us all. Also, if Darren's DVD is successful...great. I'm not sure if we're all in the USA, but damn it...anyone who makes an honest buck helps us all out. This country is great because you can work at something and possibly make a living.

6) Even though I'm not 100% happy with HDcinema - I do believe it's possible we all need to "tune" into Steve's personality and try to understand his "workflow" on his terms. I know, it's hard to online, but I think we can take that chill-pill and eventually get it. He's highly intelligent, however, when you have such high intelligence...you tend to forget that people might not "get it".

7) I need to keep working at HDcinema, so I can give a more detailed "review". But, I have spoken with people and that's all I can do...email me if you need opinions.

8) We've all had a hard time, so let's remember that we all put our pants on one leg at a time...ok?

9) Let's get along because we're not going to get anywhere without each other. We need the support when the shit hits the fan...remember?

10) I love you guys!!! ;)

Chris
Christopher C. Murphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 09:37 PM   #12
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : The guides are really good, but I still haven't gotten the demuxing to work with his "MoreMissingTools" part. However, MPGTXWRAP has worked for me. I didn't get the support I was hoping for out of the gate from Steve, but after I complained to him -- he stepped up efforts. --->>>

Chris, I have repeatedly emailed you asking what your problem is. You have never responded.

But if you haven't demuxed (step #2) I'm not sure how you could moved on. It's my plug-in at step #2 that fixes the JVC-Apple glitch. Without it, you can't load MPEG-2 into FCP. With no MPEG-2 in FCP you can't have exported uncompressed HD.

As I remember, you had a "permissions" problem with OS X. Not all that uncommon, but not easy to fix because "repair permissions" seems to only repair Apple software. We've got to tease this out and get you running. Stuck at Step 2 is not a good place to be stuck. :)
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 10:41 PM   #13
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
Well, I've read everything.

Editing kind of jerry-rigged, based on what everyone is explaining, doesn't sound efficient. Maybe I'm not getting all this, but it sounds like we can't just plug-and-play with the HD10 and FCP. There are plenty of steps involved, and all seem shakey at best.

Whoever (and I can almost totally guarantee it'll be Apple) comes up with the plug-and-play HDV option, they're the ones who'll be billionaires. Of course, Apple offers everything for free (Thanks!), but that can't be too good for business. Oh, wait, buying Apples to get free software. That's a good concept, I think. But I'm only a business minor. And that's for a thread at Business Info Community. ;-)

I'm non-tech for a reason: gets in the way of the art/work. I rely on others to help me, but so far, I still think this isn't efficient. But if it works...And for now, if I do work for someone, likely they'll just want a regular VHS copy. So that's good. But, DVHS is best for "storage."

heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2003, 11:16 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicoutimi, Canada
Posts: 334
Well guys, this thread is very interresting indeed. As I suspected, Steve's workflow is an alternative, not a solution. Actually, I personnaly edit HDV (my alternative, but getting back to the camera still is only doable with Steve's alternative) by transferring it via MPEGTXwrap and mpeg2decx to an uncompressed 8 bit format (at half the weight of normal uncompressed 8bit, or if you prefer 23MB/s instead of 55MB/s ). This uncompressed codec is part of a package supporting a capture card called miro DC30 (from Pinnacle) but the package is from a company called Squared5 from Italy. It can be downloaded from this adress: http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html they also make a very efficient MJPEG codec, witch is much lighter and preserves pretty much full quality (over 85%). These codecs can be used without the card of course and are pretty handy.

The thing about file size is a bit pushy. If we are starting to try solutions for this format, let's assume we won't use 70 hours of source, I do shorts and never had more than 5 hours of rushes, with uncompressed at 23MB/s it goes for 412.5 GB, not so much of a big deal really... With NO QUALITY LOSS WHATSOEVER. Sounds good to me. real good... And I can see full definition. Not blazing fast on my G4 DP500 but acceptable enough. With MJPEG, it is real time playback, I can live with that. In offline HD MJPEG it works RT for everything of course. The drivers from squared5 also have a realtime booster for FCP witch is impressive. That's my way for now. I work with my images a lot, SD editing for HD is unacceptable for me.

Heath is right, plug and play seems a bit far for the moment but I am still able to edit at full quality and lossless so that's good enough for me.
__________________
Eric Bilodeau
video SFX,DOP
___________________
http://www.fictis.net
info@fictis.net
Eric Bilodeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2003, 12:00 AM   #15
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : Well guys, this thread is very interresting indeed. As I suspected, Steve's workflow is an alternative, not a solution. -->>>

Eric is right of course. My definition of a solution is tape-to-tape. That's because I want an HDV tape to play on any HDTV.

But I'm curious about your solution. You say "And I can see full definition. Not blazing fast on my G4 DP500 but acceptable enough. With MJPEG, it is real time playback, I can live with that. In offline HD MJPEG it works RT for everything of course. The drivers from squared5 also have a realtime booster for FCP witch is impressive." Can you explain "not blazingly fast." And MJPEG? And real-time booster? Now I'm the one who doesn't understand.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > High Definition Video Editing Solutions

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:22 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network