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Old February 22nd, 2004, 04:28 AM   #1
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Future of HD(V) Editing with ATI-EXPRESS PCI-X card

Emilio Olivares brought this news in DVinfo DV Industry News forum but can be interesting for our HDV editing issues too.

http://www.ati.com/products/PCIexpress/index.html

I would like to open a discussion about using PC-X slot that can be found in new PM G5 or some other fastest PCs and HDV editing options (encoding/editing/decoding). For example Blackmagic DeckLink HD (Mac/PC card) claims that using that slot in new Mac G5 (or powerful PC) can provide more HD real-time effects. How CPUs are getting faster that better works for the DL HD card (probably for all other HD enabled cards too) that is a simply I/O HD with PCI-X bridge.

How this ATI technological advanced card option could reflect faster and easy to edit on FCP (Mac) or PC (Premiere Pro/AspectHD), Vegas etc?

Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 08:31 AM   #2
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Hi,

Still o any replay...but OK...

People still didn't get what is actually going on with the next generation of video cards that are going to replace AGP on both, desktop and mobile soon.

I will give you now 4 quotations from ATI announcment:

1. Already one application - HDTV video editing - requires PCI Express, and there will certainly be others in the near future, including PC gaming .

2. "ATIís PCI Express design provides up to double the bandwidth of bridged PCI Express solutions. Full bandwidth is available in both upstream and downstream directions, whereas bridged PCI Express (AGP) provides only unidirectional bandwidth."

3. "Better power management...Notebook users will find this feature of particular importance."

4. "Made possible by PCI Expressís high speed data transfers, the demonstration has to use the industryís only true PCI Express visual processing unit (VPU). ATIís PCI Express VPU, in conjunction with the advanced real time HD engine being developed by Pinnacle, takes advantage of the new read and write capabilities offered by PCI Express.


The future is here, stay tuned to see it first with ATI.ď


Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 11:11 AM   #3
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PCIExpress and PCI-X are not the same thing. Current desktop systems that use PCI and PCI-X use AGP for display controllers.

HDV is a format that uses essentially a DV data rate (ignoring Cineform's stuff). It is not particularly demanding on disk IO nor is rendering it particularly demanding of 2D video performance. If you think that PCIExpress is somehow going to make video editing faster and easier I think you'll be disappointed. Computers will continue to get faster and make editing subsequently faster, but as of now it's primarily a CPU and memory challenge. IO is not the big holdup.

As for HDTV editing requiring PCIExpress, tell that to the people who are doing it without PCIExpress. PC gaming seems to be doing fine without it as well. PCIExpress is simply Intel's replacement for PCI/AGP. Many won't even know it when they get it.
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 11:36 AM   #4
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new ATI cards should be for both Mac&PC, otherwise they are losing the market

I am not technician but I will quote again

Apple said about PCIX technology on their G5 Page:

- 133MHz PCI-X expansion
The Power Mac G5 features PCI-X, the hottest new advance in PCI technology. The PCI-X protocol increases the PCI bus speed from 33MHz to 133MHz, and the throughput from 266 Mbps to a combined total of 2GBps. PCI-X also operates more efficiently, giving you more usable bandwidth at any clock frequency ó ideal for HD video and other high-bandwidth applications.

-PCI-X protocol specs:
...These new standards keep pace with upcoming advances in high-bandwidth business-critical applications such as Fibre Channel, RAID, networking, InfiniBandô Architecture, SCSI, and iSCSI....
(This can be found at http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pcix_20)

Also I know that Steve Jobs is not going to implement any new technology that is out of the PC standard just to not put Apple in troubles that happend before.

I think it is about the same PC-X in Apple and PCXpress in ATI supported by Intel or who else.

Apple also needs ATI video cards in future. no doubts...

Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 11:57 AM   #5
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once more...

Sorry, but once more to add this opinion...

JVC said HD to masses.

Guys who edited HD on systems that costs fortune can continue to do HD on it in future for sure.

But WE, bunch of ordinaries (masses in the language of JVC) can do HD(V) editing with a little help of cheaer video cards that consists ATI, Nividia...or who else... with latest technologies that are becoming cheaper and cheaper...also with a little help of JVC, Apple, Intel, Heuris, CineForm,... etc.

These are companies in avant-garde of HD for the people.

Avid and other guys can continue with a little help of corporate money. I am talking about spending MY, PRIVATE money for my little HD vision.

Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 12:41 PM   #6
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I must be missing something here, but is this PCI-X card needed for capturing raw uncompressed HD?
Does the JVC even output such a stream?
Is this all to avoid the mpeg2 stage?
You would need to tether the JVC camera to a computer, right?

-Les
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 01:04 PM   #7
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to tell it simple that people can understand

Les,

First you can capture your video from JVC HDV camcorder in two ways:

A. To convert your camcorder analog signal to HD-SDI that starting from component output (Y/Ps/Pb) via Analog to Digital converter a la AJA A/D to HD 10 and at the end you must get it in your dektop via BNC HD-SDI input that you can find in every HD enabled card. So only DeckLink HD claims that has PC-X option at the moment. PC-X anyway helps in to move your HD files with a faster bandwidth through your hardware and software or computer in general.

B. You can capture in MPEG2-TS but some software has to convert in files that are HD by nature, uncompressed are the best, all other compressions still has to improve HD quality. So that means that new video card like ATI is going to make can be HD enabled, and maybe we can get it on laptops and in that way faster to move our videos through editing process.

About PC-X technology and HD is that gives more bandwidth that older PCI AGP tech.

HD video card vendors a la Blackmagic DeckLink, Aurora, Pinnacle, AJA... and also consumer video card vendors a la ATI, Nvidia... are all moving development in that way.

Wait for NAB in April and have a look in HD situation then...

Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 03:44 PM   #8
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So does this analog capture avoid the mpeg2 stage, and make it better because of this?
Otherwise, I don't see the point.
So are you proposing to shoot with the camera to it's DV tape? Or are you tethering a computer to the camera and just using it as a camera head, not using it's tape at all?
-Les
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 04:27 PM   #9
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a very simple explanation...

Les,

No, the thing is very simple, This JVC HDV Camcorder allows you two kinds of output, analog and digital. Analogs are component and composite/S-video. Digital is firewire. So for HD capture works analog/component and digital/firewire option. Analog/component is not SDI enabled and if you need it you must convert it. And to get it in computer you need HD enabled card with BNC HD-SDI input+ software. You capture always in 10 or 8 bit UNCOMPRESSED. Digital/firewire you capture via MPEG-TS file that must be converted in 8 or 10 bit UNCOMPRESSED or another compression that can show HD quality. Thats diverse from OS etc.

PC-X or PCXpress display card when becomes a standard on PC/Mac desktop/laptop can help to move your "monster" HD files through all your hardware and software or your computer HD workstation faster than before with PCI AGP display controllers.

That's all folks...

Sanjin
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Old February 22nd, 2004, 06:43 PM   #10
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Is it me, or are you avoiding my questions?

See post above.

Question #1: Is the capture method still MPEG2 derived video?

Question #2: Are you capturing live, not using the DV tape in the cam?

It's simple. Yes and No works well. There are two questions.

Thanks!

Cheers!
-Les
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 01:40 AM   #11
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hdv education...

Answers:

1. One of capture methods is to get it in MPEG-2 TS (TS is transport stream) that you can find in HDTV equipment...

2. I do not understand what does it mean to capture Live by your opinion? You must record in some certain media, that it is a tape. Also some vendors offer To record on Hard Drive, but these drives are still small for HD, DV is another story. Do not be confused if you can watch your HD picture live via component output in plasma or on beamer, but camcorder when recording has to put a picture in some cartain media...if you can output a picture from your plasma or beamer to deck, camcorder or HDD just drop your tip to us in this forum...Sorry, but I must repeat again!...if I am wrong please reply with your explanation...

Sanjin
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 05:27 AM   #12
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OK, I think you answered my question, that the video capture that you are describing with the cards *is* going through the mpeg2 bottleneck, that is the 19 megabit compression.
So Why would I want to ruin it even more by transferring it as an analog signal?
Copying it as the firewire standard capture is pretty much a straight data quality copy to the computer harddrive. Doing an analog transfer is relying on the camera to decode the mpeg stream again, and then introducing more signal quality loss as it goes from digital to analog and back to digital.
That would be like copying an MP3 music track from one computer to another through the sound port as analog signals and re digitizing it again at the other end.
That extra analog step is not desired in any system.
Don't you want the file transfered to the PC as clean as possible, ( bit for bit copy ) and let the PC decode it into the best suitable format for editing?

Modern video engineering frowns on analog where it isn't needed in the chain.

Why go to analog?
-Les
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 06:23 AM   #13
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The best HD cam goes HD-SDI direct...

Have a look on Pro HD stuff from Sony, Panasonic and Thomson Grass Valley or CineAlta, Varicam and Viper and see how it is going on there. Mostly it about is HD-SDI output directly, but where(?), to deck (mostly) or computer HD RAID storage via HD video card a la DeckLink, CineWave, AJA, Aurora (some Mac stuff) and than from that in NLE.

What it is analog and what it is digital you can find on links below:

- CineAlta link
http://www.cinealta.com/product/acquisition/index.html

- VariCam Link
http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat...aj-hdc27v.html

- Viper Link
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/pr...cameras/viper/

Also try to get some more knowlage about HD issues on the links about HD below:

http://www.highdef.org/library/glossary.htm

http://www.hd24.com/

Sanjin
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 01:54 PM   #14
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HD-SDI

Sanjin,
HD-SDI is a digital signal. No analog. Going to a deck is all digital too. Going to disk is digital too.

The JVC has no digital output other than the firewire.

I don't see why JVC HDV users would want to capture analog when they can stay 100% digital out of the camera.

Please explain the reason you would prefer to capture the analog signal from the little JVC camera. I don't understand!

Thanks!
-Les
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Old February 23rd, 2004, 02:27 PM   #15
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digital and analog

Les,

-Digital firewire is not the same as HD-SDI stream, otherwise all Pro HD camcorders would run firewire HD output. This is a difficult technical issue I guess.

-So JVC HDV camcorder uses firewire to output MPEG2-TS that is HDTV standard.

-I have got one DVD titled HDVTraining that you can order from Darren Kelly, one of us from this forum, and saw a great picture quality he achieved with this camcorder and also great compression on DVD. So I asked him how he get it and he answered, I am quoting him from his email to me:
"The program was shot and edited completely in HD. I use FCP and Kona HD and converters. It was downconverted to MPEG2 using Compressor in Final
Cut Pro."

Get his DVD abd see...

Or if you have some questions before about that topic please contact him at

http://www.hdvtraining.com

Sanjin
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