4x3 SD project with HDV at DVinfo.net

Ron Evans · December 26th, 2004, 11:01 AM

I would like to use HDV video from my FX1 in a 4x3 project using cropping/zooming to create another SD camera view. That is, use the FX1 as a full stage camera(most of my videos are theatre/dance) that I would then use as letter box for full stage and zoomed/cropped as alternate camera view. Which NLE has the capability to have 4x3 DV on one track and 16x9 HDV from FX1 on another track in different resolution and then output to DV ? Simple reading of specs say that Edition 6, Vegas 5, Ulead and Edius Pro3 might do this !!! Advantage of Edius Pro 3 is that it would work with my DVRaptor RT2.

Ron Evans

Graham Hickling · December 27th, 2004, 04:05 PM

I don't know the answer to your specific question, sorry.

But.... do you actually need to have both 16:9 and 4:3 footage within the project? If all your raw footage were 16:9, which you then pan-and-scanned and exported out to 4:3, then I think any of those NLEs would handle that....

Ron Evans · December 27th, 2004, 04:52 PM

THe situation is one where I have FX1 HDV as well as DV from another one or two cameras. Since output would be to 4x3 SD for DVD or DV the issue is which one of the NLE's will allow a project setting of 4x3 SD and yet still allow one or more of the tracks to have HDV at 16x9. Output of these FX1 tracks would either be letterboxed or would be a 4x3 crop/zoom from the FX1 16x9 track. At the moment Edius Pro3 seems the best choice for me. It may be the only one that can do what I want as well as full compatibility for accelerated hardware support for DV with my DVRaptor RT2.

Ron Evans

Dennis Adams · December 27th, 2004, 09:04 PM

I know for a fact that Vegas 5 can do this, no problem. You can mix and match SD and HD material on the same timeline. You can pan & scan within the 16:9 HDV to choose your 4:3 SD output. You can letterbox if you want.

The other programs that you mentioned can probably do it as well.

///d@
Sony Media Software

Kevin Shaw · December 28th, 2004, 06:54 AM

Ron: I'm pretty sure that Edius Pro 3 can do what you want, plus as you say it may offer some additional benefits when used with your current Canopus hardware. If you want more feedback on this topic try posting on the Canopus user forums, if you haven't already done so.

http://forum.canopus.com/

Ron Evans · December 28th, 2004, 06:58 PM

I think I will wait and see what the Premiere Plugin is like for HDV ( since it will be free) as I am very used to Premiere 6.5 and Pro 1.5. IF I have to make a change it will likely be to Edius Pro3 because of the hardware compatibility with DVRaptor RT2. I have got used to RT and find the encoding in Premiere Pro OHCI and Vegas a bit of a drag I am sure that this will get even worse for any HDV manipulations. Since a new computor is also a likely requirement ( mine is a Athlon XP2500+ ) I will need to figure out the order of the expenditures!!!!

Thanks again,

Ron Evans

Kevin Shaw · December 28th, 2004, 08:43 PM

Ron: if you want RT performance with HDV in Premiere you should plan to buy the full Cineform Aspect HD codec, which is $499 by itself or $799 with Premiere 1.5, Encore and Audition. (See the Cineform web site.) You could try buying that first and seeing if it will enable you to do anything useful on your current system, but you should definitely plan to get a processor upgrade to do any serious HDV work. Dual processors is a good idea, at which point I've calculated a minimum cost of roughly $1200-1400 for motherboard, processors, memory, case and power supply for that upgrade. So you're looking at close to $2000 to really get up to speed with HDV, but that's not bad compared to spending $50-100K or more for a "real" HD editing system.

Ron Evans · December 29th, 2004, 10:16 AM

I have downloaded the Cineform demo and have captured 10 min clip to play with. It took 30 min to capture and convert the 10 min clip on my XP2500. Scrubbing on timeline is immediate and editing looks to be close to realtime on the timeline ( in the preview monitor). I have yet to output in any form but will do so today to DV and MPEG2 for DVD to see what the encode times are for both these. At this time I do not want to output to HDV but want to crop/zoom a 4x3 out of the HDV to mix with DV on the timeline and preferably output to DV. So for me the favoured NLE is the one that can do this in the shortest time. Long captures and encoded export will be something I will try and avoid. Edius Pro 3 still seems the best choice because of the integration with my DVRaptorRT2, but before making a decision I will see how the free Premiere Plugin works. I know I will have to upgrade my PC too!!!!

Ron Evans

David Newman · December 29th, 2004, 11:23 AM

Ron,
Capture conversion times of that length are surprising, on a spec'd PC it should be a lot shorter. Still the in the current release it can be longer than it should be, that is about to change. We can't make the MPEG decoding any faster (remember it is the MPEG decoding speed we are trying to remove for editing), but we are working to make our encoding faster for a much quicker conversion (free download shortly.)

Ron Evans · December 29th, 2004, 02:02 PM

Thanks for the info David. I know that there will be a learning experience for everyone with HDV and I am sure I will enjoy the challenge. For now the FX1 is a great DV camera and the HDV video is just beautiful. I am sure in the next few months NLE's and computer needs will be clarified and then I will persuade my wife that an upgrade is absolutely essentiall!!!!!!

Ron Evans

Kevin Shaw · December 29th, 2004, 02:05 PM

<<< I am sure in the next few months NLE's and computer needs will be clarified and then I will persuade my wife that an upgrade is absolutely essentiall!!!>>>

Just remember, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."

:-)

December 26th, 2004, 11:01 AM	#1
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	4x3 SD project with HDV I would like to use HDV video from my FX1 in a 4x3 project using cropping/zooming to create another SD camera view. That is, use the FX1 as a full stage camera(most of my videos are theatre/dance) that I would then use as letter box for full stage and zoomed/cropped as alternate camera view. Which NLE has the capability to have 4x3 DV on one track and 16x9 HDV from FX1 on another track in different resolution and then output to DV ? Simple reading of specs say that Edition 6, Vegas 5, Ulead and Edius Pro3 might do this !!! Advantage of Edius Pro 3 is that it would work with my DVRaptor RT2. Ron Evans

December 29th, 2004, 11:23 AM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Ron, Capture conversion times of that length are surprising, on a spec'd PC it should be a lot shorter. Still the in the current release it can be longer than it should be, that is about to change. We can't make the MPEG decoding any faster (remember it is the MPEG decoding speed we are trying to remove for editing), but we are working to make our encoding faster for a much quicker conversion (free download shortly.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 27th, 2004, 04:05 PM	#2
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	I don't know the answer to your specific question, sorry. But.... do you actually need to have both 16:9 and 4:3 footage within the project? If all your raw footage were 16:9, which you then pan-and-scanned and exported out to 4:3, then I think any of those NLEs would handle that....

December 27th, 2004, 04:52 PM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	THe situation is one where I have FX1 HDV as well as DV from another one or two cameras. Since output would be to 4x3 SD for DVD or DV the issue is which one of the NLE's will allow a project setting of 4x3 SD and yet still allow one or more of the tracks to have HDV at 16x9. Output of these FX1 tracks would either be letterboxed or would be a 4x3 crop/zoom from the FX1 16x9 track. At the moment Edius Pro3 seems the best choice for me. It may be the only one that can do what I want as well as full compatibility for accelerated hardware support for DV with my DVRaptor RT2. Ron Evans

December 27th, 2004, 09:04 PM	#4
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	I know for a fact that Vegas 5 can do this, no problem. You can mix and match SD and HD material on the same timeline. You can pan & scan within the 16:9 HDV to choose your 4:3 SD output. You can letterbox if you want. The other programs that you mentioned can probably do it as well. ///d@ Sony Media Software

December 28th, 2004, 06:54 AM	#5
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Ron: I'm pretty sure that Edius Pro 3 can do what you want, plus as you say it may offer some additional benefits when used with your current Canopus hardware. If you want more feedback on this topic try posting on the Canopus user forums, if you haven't already done so. http://forum.canopus.com/

December 28th, 2004, 06:58 PM	#6
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I think I will wait and see what the Premiere Plugin is like for HDV ( since it will be free) as I am very used to Premiere 6.5 and Pro 1.5. IF I have to make a change it will likely be to Edius Pro3 because of the hardware compatibility with DVRaptor RT2. I have got used to RT and find the encoding in Premiere Pro OHCI and Vegas a bit of a drag I am sure that this will get even worse for any HDV manipulations. Since a new computor is also a likely requirement ( mine is a Athlon XP2500+ ) I will need to figure out the order of the expenditures!!!! Thanks again, Ron Evans

December 28th, 2004, 08:43 PM	#7
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Ron: if you want RT performance with HDV in Premiere you should plan to buy the full Cineform Aspect HD codec, which is $499 by itself or $799 with Premiere 1.5, Encore and Audition. (See the Cineform web site.) You could try buying that first and seeing if it will enable you to do anything useful on your current system, but you should definitely plan to get a processor upgrade to do any serious HDV work. Dual processors is a good idea, at which point I've calculated a minimum cost of roughly $1200-1400 for motherboard, processors, memory, case and power supply for that upgrade. So you're looking at close to $2000 to really get up to speed with HDV, but that's not bad compared to spending $50-100K or more for a "real" HD editing system.

December 29th, 2004, 10:16 AM	#8
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I have downloaded the Cineform demo and have captured 10 min clip to play with. It took 30 min to capture and convert the 10 min clip on my XP2500. Scrubbing on timeline is immediate and editing looks to be close to realtime on the timeline ( in the preview monitor). I have yet to output in any form but will do so today to DV and MPEG2 for DVD to see what the encode times are for both these. At this time I do not want to output to HDV but want to crop/zoom a 4x3 out of the HDV to mix with DV on the timeline and preferably output to DV. So for me the favoured NLE is the one that can do this in the shortest time. Long captures and encoded export will be something I will try and avoid. Edius Pro 3 still seems the best choice because of the integration with my DVRaptorRT2, but before making a decision I will see how the free Premiere Plugin works. I know I will have to upgrade my PC too!!!! Ron Evans

December 29th, 2004, 02:02 PM	#10
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Thanks for the info David. I know that there will be a learning experience for everyone with HDV and I am sure I will enjoy the challenge. For now the FX1 is a great DV camera and the HDV video is just beautiful. I am sure in the next few months NLE's and computer needs will be clarified and then I will persuade my wife that an upgrade is absolutely essentiall!!!!!! Ron Evans

December 29th, 2004, 02:05 PM	#11
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<< I am sure in the next few months NLE's and computer needs will be clarified and then I will persuade my wife that an upgrade is absolutely essentiall!!!>>> Just remember, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." :-)