Ugly Duckling CF24 becomes beautiful 24p Swan Footage in Vegas (i think)... at DVinfo.net

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Old February 15th, 2005, 12:11 PM   #1
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Ugly Duckling CF24 becomes beautiful 24p Swan Footage in Vegas (i think)...

<<<-- Originally posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle :
However, I *think* I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good -->>>

DSE,

After running some tests last night with CF24 footage. I made it look Mighty good by doing this in Vegas:

1. I started with Downconverted CF24 footage.
2. In vegas, I begin with a regular NTSC DV Widescreen (720x480, 29.970 fps) project, but I change the field order to 'None (progressive scan)' because that's how the CF24 footage comes in downconverted from the camera. I also change the 'deinterlace method' to 'interpolate fields' and change the 'full resolution rendering quality' to 'best'. Hit 'OK'.
3. footage looks ugly and plays choppy.
4. to fix that, I right click the video clip that's on the timeline, and choose 'properties'. On the 'video event' tab I 'disable resample' and (here's the special magic), on the 'media' tab i manually change the clips field order to 'lower field first', even though it was captured natively as progressive. Hit 'OK'.
5. After doing this, all interlacing is gone, and the clip is not so ugly anymore, and studdering is almost gone.
6. Cut your footage as normal. Make sure your video preview monitor is blown up full size, or you will see some stuff that really isn't there if it's a little miniature screen. I mean, it's ok to keep it mini, but don't look at that and think that's the final output, cause it's not. to see it correctly, you must blow up to full size.
7. Now, you will have noticed while cutting your footage that every 4th & 5th frame are the exact same. THAT'S OK, all you need to do now is export to 24p adding 2-3-3-2 pulldown. (not 2-3) to remove that judder frame, and set the correct 24p cadence.
6. So simply 'Render As' either a new DV .avi file choosing "NTSC DV Widescreen 24p (2-3-3-2)" or a "DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream" to make yourself a 24p DVD, (be sure to hit 'custom' button and include audio stream too).

CF24 DV is doable and becomes true 24p, and looks darn sexy too. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but on my footage it looks gorgeous, and is 24 frames per second progressive footage, all day long.

After you're done, take your clips and compare it to your bestfriends XL2/DVX and see who comes out smiling the hardest. (ever slam dunked on the court in someones face??? yea...its like that!)

DSE....tell me what you think.
Everybody Else....give it a shot and tell me what you think.

This method may have already been discovered, but I never found anybody who said anything, so I am saying it now. If I made an amazing discovery (which Im sure i didn't) then tell Sony I'll take a refurbished FX1 as a 'thank you'. LOLOL

Just Kidding.....

.....unless you gon' do it. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls
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Old February 15th, 2005, 12:16 PM   #2
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Ack. I'm sure glad I bought my XL2. That process sounds like a mess. Sorry.

Even better, hopefully the Panasonic AJ-HDX100 progressive DVCPROHD comes out at $5k.
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Old February 15th, 2005, 12:29 PM   #3
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<<<-- Originally posted by Steev Dinkins : Ack. I'm sure glad I bought my XL2. That process sounds like a mess. Sorry.

Even better, hopefully the Panasonic progressive DVCPROHD comes out at $5k. -->>>

Steve,

That process is no different then what you have to do with a XL2. Remember, I just illustrated how to go from your camera to editing to exporting a DVD ready file. Now, Unless XL2's can ready your mind and cut your footage inside of it and then fart out DVD ready files through the firewire directly into DVD Architect 2.0, then I beleive you have to go through those exact same things. LOL

Everybody has to 'setup' their timeline to prepare for editing. *smile*
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Old February 15th, 2005, 12:51 PM   #4
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Still sounds like a lot more steps to me.

Anyway, I'm glad there are people coming up with solutions to deal with these Sony cameras not having progressive capture. I've been following all discussions on deinterlacing, etc. I'm still very dissapointed they didn't offer 720p. Sounds like you may have broken through to a solution. I'd still like to see someone's footage that rivals what I've seen from the DVX/XL2 in terms of "the look" as opposed to resolution. Posting clear grabs, footage, etc could lend some credibility to the "slam dunk". Believe me, I'm interested in the slam dunk in quality.

As to not go offtopic, kudos for furthering the workflow for dealing with the Z1. I'd like to see more posting of examples along with the technical posts.
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Old February 15th, 2005, 08:52 PM   #5
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I'm not sure how the result of all this could be truly, truly smooth...

It's been established that the camera does, after removing the pulldown inserted in CF24, not sample motion at an even 24fps. The data's just not there.

Is it possible you've found something that just somehow manages to make the stutter slightly less offensive?
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Old February 15th, 2005, 10:00 PM   #6
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Archive "Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures"

I wish there was a place in this forum where the Moderators could archive the really useful items like Shannon's eight step 24p conversion in Vegas. In the military, we call such things TTPs, and go to great length to vet them for accuracy and completeness and then write them in great detail so we don't have to learn a lesson again (the hard way).

A place where useful checklists like this are maintained would be a boon to the members of this forum. Important topics like this conversion, editing workflow, lighting set-up, customer cash management and more pass through these pages and as good as SEARCH is, you have to know what you're looking for or you'll never see that true nugget of wisdom.

How about a Moderator editied post at the top of each topic board with TTPs for that lane. Or not...and I'll still pour over every word written here and be very grateful to the time and effort the owner, moderators, and members of this forum provide to my education.
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Old February 15th, 2005, 10:58 PM   #7
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we've tried funky Vegas 5d renders as well....

Shannon, we've tried similar methods - I'm curious to know the original workaround concocted by DSE as quoted by you?

Also, for completeness, can you elaborate on your first step here "downconverted to 24p" - just to make sure we're all on the same page as we try to replicate your results...

I think choosing a good deinterlace method and disabling resampling are the key points in Vegas - before we did that, anything we did with cf modes didn't come out too well...

Just curious why you're so determined to solve the cf24 riddle when you've got a Z1 and can shoot cf25 which everyone says is so much better in terms of final resolution etc...? I mean, come on, "JAG" used that mode so, obviously, it is the ONLY way to go!

:)

Cheers!
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Old February 15th, 2005, 11:57 PM   #8
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Mark (that's my brothers name too),

#1. Yea, me too. He said he will let us know of his results in a couple weeks when his film-out comes back. So i guess we'll see.

#2. The workflow for my first step was simple. I set the Z1 to HDV format and put it in CF24 mode (PP4) and went out shooting some stuff. Aftrwards, I came back to the editing bay and plugged the camera to the computer via firewire. I enabled the i.link downconversion so that it would send DV via firewire. I set the downconversion method to SQUEEZE. Capture as normal with Vegas capture 5.0. I import the footage to my media pool in Vegas and it recognizes the footage as 29.97 Progressive DV footage. proceed as normal.

#3. Understood. I beleive that too.

#4. Because, Mark, shooting CF25 or 50i....well....it just doesn't sit well with me knowing I own a DVX100a and living in a '24p rules!' world. If thats the case, why EVER shoot in 24p or 60i?? Why don't americans just get european cameras. Why didn't they use European cameras for Open Water? Why not use european cameras for Bamboozled? Why not European cameras for Dancer in the Dark?? I dunno. I can't put my finger on it, but I do know, if I lived elsewhere it would be a no brainer, but since I live in California, it just don't feel right. Running around Hollywood for 2 weeks with a full crew, shooting in 50i....mmmmmm, naw. It's 60i or CF24 for me. I know people will say I'm an idiot for thinking this way...well...it's my money so let me burn it as I please if they think that way. "But Shannon, you can still end up in 24p AND even better if you shoot 50i or CF25".....Well, that may be true, but to do so would cause me to change my native 'feeling' of workflow, and I don't want to do that. Yes, I know about the 4% slowdown, yes I know about the apparent benefits, yes I know about Jody & JAG. Still....I like 60i, 30p, 24p...natively. For me, at this moment, most projects will go straight to DVD, no $35,000.00 film outs or anything like that. If I were to shoot a movie destined for film, i would probably shoot it IN film OR use the best HD camera I could afford. Or if I didn't have f950/Genesis/Viper money for production and was forced to use the Z1 but I had Post Production money and knew I would make a film-out, then I probably wouldn't shoot CFanything. I would shoot 60i all the way for the HIGHEST resolution possible and leave it up to the film house to do it 'their way'. But for straight to SD DVD, CF modes in the Z1U is perfect for the $10k-$100k budgets I work with. CF30 does not work, because albeit it look sgreat, it gives me that 'pro videographer' feeling. If I were an event shooter or wedding shooter, My camera switch would get rusted on CF30, but I'm not, so it's 60i or CF24 for me. And because I want my $40k straight to DVD features to give me the feeling that I feel when I watch great movies like THE TERMINAL or COLLATERAL or LOCK STOCK AND TWO SMOKING BARRELS, etc... , then I need to find the best in-camera 24 frames per scond solution I can find. And I do not want to rule out what Sony has in store for CF24.

I honestly beleive that Sony Veags 6.0 will have a big surprise for us FX1/Z1U owners. I have a feeling they are going to have a "CF24 setting" in the properties, and when you click it, it will simply do all the magic it needs to do to make CF24 look like the sweetest 24p footage we have ever seen.

So..yes, I am on a crusade to make CF24 work today. Also, I have never been the kinda guy who is so lazy that I will just 'settle' for the easy way out. I don't mind tweaking a few things, staying up late running tests and going the extra inch to make things work out for me.

Tomorrow, I may ask my wife to come up with and write an easy concept short film and then shoot it tommorow in CF24. Something like 5 minutes running time. I'll have my buddy cut it up using the settings I mention above, and stream it to you guys. If it looks cool, I'll duplicate about 50 DVD's on my burner and let you guys have them for $2-3 bucks. We'll see.

- ShannonRawls.com
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Old February 16th, 2005, 12:12 AM   #9
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Shannon,

Thanks for your work on this. I'm trying to work out a FCP workflow based on your Vegas solution.
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Old February 16th, 2005, 12:47 AM   #10
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Shannon, thanks for your info!

Hey, Shannon, thanks for the elaboration!

Wow, so you're letting the camera do the downconvert? We've shot and captured HDV all the way and then let Vegas do the downconvert - going out to SD DVD yields a better result to us... very interesting... Seems like early consensus too from others is to NOT let the camera do the downconvert...? I think DSE swears by this...

Yes, I wish there was an option to do "2-3 pulldown" removal on HDV footage without having to downgrade to DV 24p file first... Vegas dudes need to tweak the software to handle this!

I agree with you regarding cf24 and your crusade - why the heck put it on the camera if you can't get any use out of it? I'm hoping too that there will be big enhancements/support in Vegas 6...

I remember my filmmaker friends who used to buy the PAL XL1/S before XL2 offered 24p to get the "filmlook" - the sucky thing with that was that you had to have a PAL-capable monitor to review/preview or render out as NTSC before you could see anything. The advantage gained was slight - you had "25fps" emulating the cadence of 24, but because PAL screen dimensions x 50i x 8 bits cancelled out 720 x 480 x 60i x 8bits, you ended up with same amount of bits - plus, software having to render out the conversion to NTSC meant downgrading, effectively cancelling out any advantage PAL offered initially in terms of resolution, etc.

But now it seems to be different for HDV, since both 50i and 60i are "1080" resolution - so 50i has 10 less interlaced frames per second meaning you have less compression applied to 50i so theoretically it should be "sharper." Hence I think the choice by JAG to use cf25 to get as "filmic" a look as possible...

Again, I applaud your crusade - I was really holding out with baited breath that cf24 etc. was going to be "fixed" for the release of the Z1... Does Sony really think that "all is well" on the cineframe front? Maybe it can be recovered in post the way Vegas handles Panny 24p footage and all will be well after the fact - but right now, I feel your pain - something's gotta give!

If the camera is downconverting to DV on the fly as you're now saying you're doing, it probably becomes "lower-field first" mini-dv avi and that makes sense why your finding about lower-field first is the way to go... Only if you'd be capturing HDV native m2t would have to be upper field first, I think...

Cheers!
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Old February 16th, 2005, 02:38 AM   #11
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No problem Mark,

And yes, while theorhetically this method (should) work on HDV .m2t footage as well (i guess, i havent tried it) and YES HDV footage downconverted to .avi in vegas rather then the camera will look better (i suppose, i havent tried it), I'm letting the camera do the downconversion because of a few key reasons....

#1. I need timecode....today, not tommorow.
#2. In-camera downconversion is faster for right now. Although I'm not in a super rush, it's faster all the same, especially for testing purposes.
#3. In-camera downconverted Z1 footage is still prettier then XL2/DVX to me anyway, so what does it matter? LOL
#4. I like to plug up my 9" flat screen TV/DVD combo televisions with a 75' BNC cable for "Video Village" and they will only work with NTSC feeds. If I go PAL (50i, CF25) composite out, I can fagetaboutit! and then i'd be stuck with the cameras flip-out only. Oh, and guys, save the "Shannon why don't you use a HD field monitor?" replys. I don't have any yet, them suckas are f**kin expensive and my 9 inchers are just fine!

(((( That reminds me. I bet all you American "I'm gonna shoot in PAL" people didn't think about that did ya? If you want to watch your video feed on an external monitor while shooting but ain't got a heavy-arse $2500+ component in HD monitor in your back pocket, then you gotta use your S-Video and/or Composite feeds. but if you ain't got a PAL monitor handy...your SOL. and you wonder why I am on a CF24 adventure and don't just settle for CF25. LOLOLOL ))))

Now in the event that this method does work for HDV .m2t footage as well (using upper instead of lower field first), then it seems you can simply do this to you your HDV footage and then render out a real 24p file. From there, you can simply 'cut that' and then render out a final DVD.

Me personally, I'm going to wait for Sony Media Software to figure out how they are going to handle the HDV footage and CF24 HDV footage natively with Vegas and VEGAS ONLY. I'd rather start doing HDV stuff in Vegas tomorrow as opposed to all this CapDVHS/Cineform/Intermidiate codec/convert this/convert that/no timecode and all too confusing HDV options of today. It's just not that serious right now.

CF25 worked for JAG, but, and I hope I don't get lynched for saying this, but who says thats JAG's method is gospel and CF25 is the holly grail anyhow?? For all we know, when they realized the F900 woulodn't fit in the helicopter they probably just shrugged their shoulders grabbed a Z1 and said "CF25 Seems cool and easy, let's go with that" and that was it. While the JAG people are way smarter then I am when it comes to HD shooting and formats, and Jody is DA MAN and I like him, people are acting like 3 months of 18-hour day testing was done in some dungeon laboratory by the JAG scientists before this episode was shot and CF25 was chosen. Honestly, If i ever use CF25 it's because my man DSE told me to, and I trust his words more then any TV show that uses 10 seconds of CF25 for a cut-a-way shot ever could.

But that's just me....don't listen to me, what do I know? *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com
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Old February 16th, 2005, 10:39 AM   #12
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Hey Shannon... I agree with your little crusade. It's also pretty nice for lil' ol' me the NTSC FX1 owner ; )

I didn't realize you'd started a whole thread on this, but I'm still trying to figure out if at any point you're editing frame-accurate 24p footage.

My efforts on 24p processing were loosely described here, as well as some practical results (in 24p HD quicktime files)

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36479

Here are a couple stills:
http://s94963366.onlinehome.us/Eclipse/SvJpics/shot04.jpg
http://s94963366.onlinehome.us/Eclipse/SvJpics/shot10.jpg
(note to critics: the weather was overcast, and there really was no detail in the sky... which is why you won't see any. Also all colours have been desaturated by -60 in AE, here's a better still of what the camera actually produced:
http://s94963366.onlinehome.us/Eclipse/biteme.jpg)

No one really lashed out and complained about the cadence of the footage, and as I'm puttering away to get this flick finished and out the door in a web-friendly HD format, I'm also curious as to how I'm how I'm going to appropriately apply pull-down for the eventual NTSC SD-DVD version.

My intended final release is still a 24p WM9 file at 1920x1080 or 1280x720 in conjunction with a Sorenson3 Quicktime version @ 1440x614.

-Steve
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Old February 22nd, 2005, 01:00 AM   #13
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Here's a sample of trying to get 29.97 to 23.97:

http://rapidshare.de/files/673622/Lizard_2397_xvid.avi.html

23.97 Xvid Q@5

I need to do a test on some people's movements and not my cousin's lizard.
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Old February 22nd, 2005, 10:17 AM   #14
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Well Kyle, I think it looks pretty smooth.

-Steve
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Old February 22nd, 2005, 05:57 PM   #15
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Shannon i would love to see some of that 24p footage i think is great to find a workaround the cf24 ,also most of us will be downrez in end anyways as most of our work will end up in betacams for tv, also what brand of flat 9 inchers do you use for your V V, how do you set them on bnc's, thanks i just hope a similar workaround for the PC as i have PPro and is really good deinterlacing 60i
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