Montoring Options for HDV in FCP5 at DVinfo.net

Bill Koepnick · May 20th, 2005, 12:37 PM

All was once clear and easy in the DV workflow -- firewire to camera, camera to video and audio monitors, no sweat.

Now with a Sony HDR-FX1 I am trying to figure the most efficient way to duplicate this set-up. During capture I can receive HDV to FCP over firewire while simultaneously viewing SD (letterboxed) to my Sony NTSC SD monitor from the S-video output of the FX1 while feeding audio from its output to my audio system. No problem here.

Switching to edit mode I have found no way to send video over firewire to the FX1 - hence no downconverted output to the NTSC monitor (which I really only want for color correction). Anyone know how to make this work?

From what I have found online, the common wisdom is to either use an HD Cinema Display to use with Cinema Mode, or get a Kona 2 (or something similar) and output to any sort of SD or HD monitor. Either option would set me back a couple of grand, and if one of these options is mandated because through-camera downconvert isn't supported, which would be the best choice?

Your comments and help will be appreciated!

And a side-note... At NAB Apple made a very big deal about including native HDV support in the new FCP (a much appreciated improvement, and huge accomplishment), but other than a cursory mention of that new capability in the manuals, no HDV workflow is outlined or explained AT ALL! With only a couple of HDV devices on the market it would be easy enough to at least include a little pamphlet or read-me file to help us out. But this is all still VERY new. I'm sure the online community will provide answers as people stumble across solutions.

Ben De Rydt · May 21st, 2005, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koepnick

Switching to edit mode I have found no way to send video over firewire to the FX1 - hence no downconverted output to the NTSC monitor (which I really only want for color correction). Anyone know how to make this work?

It's not possible without recompressing the sequence to HDV or DV (for SD sized display). Try "Print to tape" to see how long recompressing to HDV would take.

I do not have Final Cut Pro 5 yet, but perhaps it might be possible to do an offline/online workflow. Capture in downconverted DV, edit in DV, do your color correction in DV and then recapture the final sequence to HDV. I can't check if this is possible, and you have to be aware there might be an issue with the difference in colourspace between DV and HDV.

Bill Koepnick · May 22nd, 2005, 10:10 PM

Thanks Ben...

I got hold of a Kona 2 card, and it does as advertised - offer live playback of your sequence downconverted to SD. Looks good and displays accurate color. I am told it will also offload some of the processing so that your CPU has more resources for RT work, but I can't really confirm this form experience yet. The latest drivers (for Tiger, FCP5 and HDV) are still in Beta, but available if you contact AJA.

I also tried Cinema Mode, but although the picture looks nice and big (good for checking sync, etc) the color doesn't match the direct output of the camera as seen during capture, and therefore would not be suitable for making corrections to color.

I was hoping to avoid spending $2500 on a Kona 2, and should see if a Decklink card would work as well. They are $1000 less, but from what I have read they make your system work harder to do the downconversion in software, and would therefore impact RT performance.

But there is one other oddity... It IS possible to set video playback to NTSC firewire (720x480) in the A/V settings, and a picture will be produced over firewire that my Canopus ADVC100 will convert, but not during playback - just a still frame of where the playhead was last at rest. Scrubbing works in a limited fashion, but in any case the picture is jaggy and low resolution. Why is that setting available when it doesn't really work?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that HD (even in HDV guise) will not come cheap if we want the full range of functionality we enjoyed previously with SD in DV form.

Thanks for your suggestions, by the way.

Kevin Shaw · May 23rd, 2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koepnick

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that HD (even in HDV guise) will not come cheap if we want the full range of functionality we enjoyed previously with SD in DV form.

That's the bottom line all right. All things considered, we're getting a bargain to be able to produce high-definition video at all without spending many tens of thousands of dollars to do so. If you want to edit HDV effectively you still need to spend a few thousand, but that's better than having to spend $100K.

Paul St. Denis · June 16th, 2005, 07:48 PM

I have FCP5 and if I go to AV Setting-A/V devices, HDV is one of the options for playback devices... but it is ghosted. It would be nice to be able to use firewire to go to a DVHS deck and then YPbPr out to a HDTV monitor. Why would the option be there but not be available?

Richard Lubash · June 17th, 2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koepnick

Thanks Ben...
But there is one other oddity... It IS possible to set video playback to NTSC firewire (720x480) in the A/V settings, and a picture will be produced over firewire Thanks for your suggestions, by the way.

Bill,

I have been using our second Cinema display to view the editing but then switch (in the view menu) to firewire output, to our DSR-50 SD Deck which is connected to a SD broadcast monitor for color correction. Even though this method only outputs a "still" SD picture it seems color accurate although not full SD resolution in that color corrected footage played back later on a HD monitor looks the same. Using this setup you could edit on your computer (even without the cinema display) viewing your edits in the browser/viewer windows, color correct on your SD monitor and then just view the finished product on whatever HD screen you normally use.

I have found it ain't pretty but it works.

Richard
2K-Plus
Atlanta

Nicholas Natteau · June 18th, 2005, 02:41 AM

Hello everyone,

I just purchased a multi-format Sony PVM14L5/1 monitor. I haven't received the box yet and decided not to open the box if someone can answer a question I forgot to ask the salesman.

I have a Sony HDV M10U deck and FCP5. Will I be able to preview my HDV footage on this monitor via FCP5 and component-out from M10U like I can in DV. I know that whatever I see on the Sony HDV M10U is correctly displayed in HD quality on this 800line monitor. What I am not sure of is whether a clip in FCP5 viewer window will simultaneously show up on this monitor.

Has anyone used this monitor to do HDV editing with FCP5?

Thanks very much in advance,

- Nicholas

Ben De Rydt · June 18th, 2005, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas Natteau

Will I be able to preview my HDV footage on this monitor via FCP5 and component-out from M10U like I can in DV.

No, you won't.

Read the thread, please.

Nicholas Natteau · June 18th, 2005, 08:33 AM

I read the thread and it wasn't clear.

Is it a matter of adding more hardware?

Thank you in advance.

- Nicholas

Ben De Rydt · June 18th, 2005, 08:57 AM

It's not possible to use an HDV deck or camera as a link between your computer and a broadcast monitor. Your computer would have to be able to recompress the entire timeline to HDV in realtime, even if you did nothing more than remove the first frame. No computer can do this now. What you can use for monitoring is HD hardware like the DeckLink HD or AJA Kona 2. These will output uncompressed HD via HD-SDI or Analogue Component out.

Nicholas Natteau · June 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM

HI Ben,

Thank you very much for your reply. I was actually just talking to FCP Pro tech support and they recommended I get a Decklink HD Pro 4:2:2 card into my G5.

Question: If I get this card, would I be able to preview HDV in realtime on that Sony 14PVML5 monitor? Or would there be a 2-3 second lag? I understand I would not be using the M10U or Z1. That the connection would be going straight from G5 to the Monitor via the Decklink card.

But would it be in realtime or would there be a lag between what the monitor displays and what you see in the Viewer or Canvas window in FCP5?

Thanks again for your help,

- Nicholas

Ben De Rydt · June 19th, 2005, 04:28 AM

I don't have the money for any of these cards, but as far as I know they are realtime. Perhaps someone with a Decklink card can chime in? Otherwise check the Blackmagic Design Decklink forum at http://www.creativecow.net .

Paul St. Denis · June 22nd, 2005, 10:15 AM

We have a JVC SR-VD400US D-VHS deck here at work. I was disappointed to find that FCP5 does not recognize the deck upon startup when connected via firewire, although the JVC JY-HD10 and the deck work together.
Takafumi Ide, who works with us wa able to get a somewhat workable solution by plugging the firewire into the decks "ilink in/out" and then plugging the camera into the decks "dv in", when FCP5 starts up it recognizes the camera, and when doing a print to tape we can record to the deck, which also shows up on a HDTV monitor via component out.
I don't know how much use this is to anybody who doesn't have this exact setup but I thought I would put it out there.
I am still hoping that there is a real time monitoring solution via firewire. Given that Final Cut seems to be editing in native HDV it does not seem to be beyond the realm of possibility.

Carl Crum · June 23rd, 2005, 05:16 PM

Please forgive me if this idea has already been mentioned....

I currently have a G5 2.7 with the Ultra6800 card going out to 2 23" Cinema displays. I use one for monitoring and one for editing. I was thinking about trying the following:

Adding the following card to an avalible PCI slot (Radeon 9200 Mac Edition - $128 through MacMall) which offers DVI output, and connecting that to an HD video monitor (Advent 30" HD-Ready Flat-Tube TV with DVI input - $459 through Best Buy) via DVI. Would FCP5 allow me to output the "Digital Cinema Desktop" video stream to this CRT monitor via DVI?

Any comments or solutions would be greatly appreciated.

Paul St. Denis · June 24th, 2005, 11:43 PM

I think coming from DV I wanted "what people will be seeing in the real world"
meaning analog out to a convential CRT monitor. Upon further reflection I am begining to wonder if this is really needed for HDV. As Carl Crum mentioned, you can use DVI on some HDTV monitors, increasingly people will be using their HDTVs with DVI/HDMI.

May 20th, 2005, 12:37 PM	#1
Bill Koepnick New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, CA Posts: 7	Montoring Options for HDV in FCP5 All was once clear and easy in the DV workflow -- firewire to camera, camera to video and audio monitors, no sweat. Now with a Sony HDR-FX1 I am trying to figure the most efficient way to duplicate this set-up. During capture I can receive HDV to FCP over firewire while simultaneously viewing SD (letterboxed) to my Sony NTSC SD monitor from the S-video output of the FX1 while feeding audio from its output to my audio system. No problem here. Switching to edit mode I have found no way to send video over firewire to the FX1 - hence no downconverted output to the NTSC monitor (which I really only want for color correction). Anyone know how to make this work? From what I have found online, the common wisdom is to either use an HD Cinema Display to use with Cinema Mode, or get a Kona 2 (or something similar) and output to any sort of SD or HD monitor. Either option would set me back a couple of grand, and if one of these options is mandated because through-camera downconvert isn't supported, which would be the best choice? Your comments and help will be appreciated! And a side-note... At NAB Apple made a very big deal about including native HDV support in the new FCP (a much appreciated improvement, and huge accomplishment), but other than a cursory mention of that new capability in the manuals, no HDV workflow is outlined or explained AT ALL! With only a couple of HDV devices on the market it would be easy enough to at least include a little pamphlet or read-me file to help us out. But this is all still VERY new. I'm sure the online community will provide answers as people stumble across solutions.

June 18th, 2005, 02:41 AM	#7
Nicholas Natteau Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 70	will a Sony multi-format monitor display HDV in FCP5? Hello everyone, I just purchased a multi-format Sony PVM14L5/1 monitor. I haven't received the box yet and decided not to open the box if someone can answer a question I forgot to ask the salesman. I have a Sony HDV M10U deck and FCP5. Will I be able to preview my HDV footage on this monitor via FCP5 and component-out from M10U like I can in DV. I know that whatever I see on the Sony HDV M10U is correctly displayed in HD quality on this 800line monitor. What I am not sure of is whether a clip in FCP5 viewer window will simultaneously show up on this monitor. Has anyone used this monitor to do HDV editing with FCP5? Thanks very much in advance, - Nicholas

June 23rd, 2005, 05:16 PM	#14
Carl Crum New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ft. Worth, TX Posts: 12	DVI Monitor Option Please forgive me if this idea has already been mentioned.... I currently have a G5 2.7 with the Ultra6800 card going out to 2 23" Cinema displays. I use one for monitoring and one for editing. I was thinking about trying the following: Adding the following card to an avalible PCI slot (Radeon 9200 Mac Edition - $128 through MacMall) which offers DVI output, and connecting that to an HD video monitor (Advent 30" HD-Ready Flat-Tube TV with DVI input - $459 through Best Buy) via DVI. Would FCP5 allow me to output the "Digital Cinema Desktop" video stream to this CRT monitor via DVI? Any comments or solutions would be greatly appreciated.

May 22nd, 2005, 10:10 PM	#3
Bill Koepnick New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, CA Posts: 7	Thanks Ben... I got hold of a Kona 2 card, and it does as advertised - offer live playback of your sequence downconverted to SD. Looks good and displays accurate color. I am told it will also offload some of the processing so that your CPU has more resources for RT work, but I can't really confirm this form experience yet. The latest drivers (for Tiger, FCP5 and HDV) are still in Beta, but available if you contact AJA. I also tried Cinema Mode, but although the picture looks nice and big (good for checking sync, etc) the color doesn't match the direct output of the camera as seen during capture, and therefore would not be suitable for making corrections to color. I was hoping to avoid spending $2500 on a Kona 2, and should see if a Decklink card would work as well. They are $1000 less, but from what I have read they make your system work harder to do the downconversion in software, and would therefore impact RT performance. But there is one other oddity... It IS possible to set video playback to NTSC firewire (720x480) in the A/V settings, and a picture will be produced over firewire that my Canopus ADVC100 will convert, but not during playback - just a still frame of where the playhead was last at rest. Scrubbing works in a limited fashion, but in any case the picture is jaggy and low resolution. Why is that setting available when it doesn't really work? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that HD (even in HDV guise) will not come cheap if we want the full range of functionality we enjoyed previously with SD in DV form. Thanks for your suggestions, by the way.

June 16th, 2005, 07:48 PM	#5
Paul St. Denis Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stony Brook NY Posts: 169	I have FCP5 and if I go to AV Setting-A/V devices, HDV is one of the options for playback devices... but it is ghosted. It would be nice to be able to use firewire to go to a DVHS deck and then YPbPr out to a HDTV monitor. Why would the option be there but not be available?

June 18th, 2005, 08:33 AM	#9
Nicholas Natteau Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 70	I read the thread and it wasn't clear. Is it a matter of adding more hardware? Thank you in advance. - Nicholas

June 18th, 2005, 08:57 AM	#10
Ben De Rydt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 139	It's not possible to use an HDV deck or camera as a link between your computer and a broadcast monitor. Your computer would have to be able to recompress the entire timeline to HDV in realtime, even if you did nothing more than remove the first frame. No computer can do this now. What you can use for monitoring is HD hardware like the DeckLink HD or AJA Kona 2. These will output uncompressed HD via HD-SDI or Analogue Component out.

June 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM	#11
Nicholas Natteau Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 70	HI Ben, Thank you very much for your reply. I was actually just talking to FCP Pro tech support and they recommended I get a Decklink HD Pro 4:2:2 card into my G5. Question: If I get this card, would I be able to preview HDV in realtime on that Sony 14PVML5 monitor? Or would there be a 2-3 second lag? I understand I would not be using the M10U or Z1. That the connection would be going straight from G5 to the Monitor via the Decklink card. But would it be in realtime or would there be a lag between what the monitor displays and what you see in the Viewer or Canvas window in FCP5? Thanks again for your help, - Nicholas

June 19th, 2005, 04:28 AM	#12
Ben De Rydt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 139	I don't have the money for any of these cards, but as far as I know they are realtime. Perhaps someone with a Decklink card can chime in? Otherwise check the Blackmagic Design Decklink forum at http://www.creativecow.net .

June 22nd, 2005, 10:15 AM	#13
Paul St. Denis Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stony Brook NY Posts: 169	We have a JVC SR-VD400US D-VHS deck here at work. I was disappointed to find that FCP5 does not recognize the deck upon startup when connected via firewire, although the JVC JY-HD10 and the deck work together. Takafumi Ide, who works with us wa able to get a somewhat workable solution by plugging the firewire into the decks "ilink in/out" and then plugging the camera into the decks "dv in", when FCP5 starts up it recognizes the camera, and when doing a print to tape we can record to the deck, which also shows up on a HDTV monitor via component out. I don't know how much use this is to anybody who doesn't have this exact setup but I thought I would put it out there. I am still hoping that there is a real time monitoring solution via firewire. Given that Final Cut seems to be editing in native HDV it does not seem to be beyond the realm of possibility.

June 24th, 2005, 11:43 PM	#15
Paul St. Denis Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stony Brook NY Posts: 169	I think coming from DV I wanted "what people will be seeing in the real world" meaning analog out to a convential CRT monitor. Upon further reflection I am begining to wonder if this is really needed for HDV. As Carl Crum mentioned, you can use DVI on some HDTV monitors, increasingly people will be using their HDTVs with DVI/HDMI.