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Old April 15th, 2006, 02:33 PM   #31
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Dan,

Me: "As long as you only made cuts, and didn't do any effects or anything, there was no quality loss when you rendered."

You: "in that scenario, there is nothing to be rendered, so i'm not sure what you are referring to?"

Right, we have different definitons of rendering.

If I take 7 shots, edit them how I like in a timeline and then select an option that will create a copy in which the shots are forged together - I call this latter stage 'rendering'.

You may use the term differently, more purely some might say, but it's principle is quite intact in my usage and in the usage of many who take the same route.

It has effectively come to mean when you have finished decision-making and wish to create a subsequent version with those decisions enshrined.

You render.

Of course, I now understand your earlier question more clearly.

You: "are you saying that you can bring the sanyo mpeg4 native footage into vegas, and play it back without rendering anything? you can make simple cuts-only edits, then export the native mpeg4 off of the timeline without any rendering at all? anything else is bad for picture quality."

I just gave this a try for you and sadly wasn't able to export.

Furthermore, I do see a quality loss when I render, unlike with the KDDI software I referred to.

So, whatever about the terminology, we can agree there is a slight loss of quality, which is certainly unsatisfactory in the long run.

Graham
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Old April 16th, 2006, 02:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Jones Senior
Dan,
So, whatever about the terminology, we can agree there is a slight loss of quality, which is certainly unsatisfactory in the long run.
Graham
I think HD-1 footage is a "short run" kind of video ;). Keep in mind that we're talking about mpeg4 for the hobbiest here--not archival footage that may be re-edited several times. A slight loss of quality, possibly not even visible, is not a problem for most HD-1 users. Even if the loss of quality is visible, it may not be objectionable. I can often detect defects when single stepping through frames that I could never see at 30 fps!

MPEG4 "native" editing is not yet available and truely native editing probably never will be available, due to the nature of mpeg4 compression. It's a bit like trying to edit a text file that's been compressed into a zip archive--you can't just change one word in a zip file! You must decompress the file, change the word, and recompress to a new archive. However, zip file compression is losssless. MPEG4 is lossy. Therein lies the rub!

However, we can cut to the nearest keyframe so one possible method to maximize quality is to use an ap like Quicktime or MPEG Streamclip to trim clips in the native mp4 or mov (similar to mp4) format and container. In fact, transitions could be cut and processed separately so that the bulk of the video remains unscathed. After processing and rendering the transitions with fancy iMove HD or Final Cut effects, everything could be appended back to the final video. MPEG Streamclip provides a jump to nearest keyframe function. You can preview it and move the mark point, if necessary. Quicktime provides no preview of the keyframe it selected. It appears the HD-1 uses 1 sec as the maximum keyframe interval. Of course, when you use a tool like iMove HD or Final Cut which use the Apple Intermediate codec, you don't have to worry about keyframes, but even simply trimming of clips results in a lossy rendering and recompression, which is what concerns Graham here.

I think the new Intel Mac mini is a great platform for HD-1 users! I haven't tried it, but I suspect even the single core "Solo" model could play HD1 output with VLC or mplayer. It would take longer than the core duo to do any fancy processing beyond simple video file trimming, but the output would be the same, of course. I think spending approximately the same amount of money on an editing platform as the camera is not a bad rule of thumb. My brother in law is a professional cameraman, producer and editor. Gee, I think his editing workstation cost him about $10k--about the same as one of his cams!
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Old April 16th, 2006, 04:05 PM   #33
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if the editor can export it without rendering, it is indeed a copy of the original footage, minus a few frames perhaps :-)

calin is on the right track, because if you can make your cuts on keyframes, there is no rendering necessary, and therefore no loss in quality... if you make your cuts between keyframes, the only thing you'll have to render is the area between the keyframes, which is pretty insignificant.

the intel mac mini is a pc, which means that you'll be able to get similar or better horsepower for the same $$$ by shopping at any good white-box retailer of pc parts... fry's(outpost.com) comes to mind... the only reason to do it with a mac mini is to get osx, or perhaps that specific form factor.

where you get hurt doing it at a place like fry's is buying the operating system software... the cheapest i've seen a full version of winxp home is maybe $82 plus tax?

on the other hand, if you hang around forums like fatwallet.com, you'll see that fry's currently has rebates that give you a free quality power supply and a free case, which does tend to make up for that $82 purchase of winxp :-)

try doing that with a mac mini.
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Old April 21st, 2006, 04:49 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Euritt
the intel mac mini is a pc, which means that you'll be able to get similar or better horsepower for the same $$$ by shopping at any good white-box retailer of pc parts... fry's(outpost.com) comes to mind... the only reason to do it with a mac mini is to get osx, or perhaps that specific form factor.
I agree. I have many computers at home running Windows, OS X, and Linux. OS X is what makes a Mac a "Mac"--at least to me. I haven't done much more than server aps on my Linux systems. Perhaps Linux is a way to avoid the M$ "tax" on DIY systems.

BTW, if the Intel Mac mini is a pc, so are the older G4 minis. Running OS X, my G4 mini is indistinguishable from the new Intel minis from a usage standpoint-- except for speed differences in various aps.
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Old April 21st, 2006, 06:07 AM   #35
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"if the Intel Mac mini is a pc, so are the older G4 minis. Running OS X, my G4 mini is indistinguishable from the new Intel minis from a usage standpoint-- except for speed differences in various aps."

I thought the older minis didn't have an Intel chip - which according to NY Times is apparently required to run these new XP facilitators, if not the old simulators.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/13/te...BqHDQtKU4avxOg
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Old April 21st, 2006, 01:14 PM   #36
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Well PC has split into being used TWO ways

PC as in Windows Computers Intel/AMD and PC as Personal Computer (the latter being the correct usage)

so to the former its now a PC running Mac OS to the latter it is and always has been a PC :-)

I prefer windows for a simple reason. it works fine and it encompasses over 90% of the market and therfore workforce

Some other reasons. Mac machines are insanely overpriced. I can build twice the machine for 1/5th the cost of a Mac.

Windows is stable enough for me. I have XP installes that are over 2 years old with no reinstalls needed and no crashes thus far.

I also dont get viruses. that just takes smart computer usage.

Mac encompases just over 2% of the userbase. THIS is why macs can run windows and access windows files and windows machines do not and do not need to.

OSX is beautiful and works well its just too nich and too expensive. now if they sold a version that I could run on AN Intel/AMD hardware I might give it a shot.

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Old April 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM   #37
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I mentionned that new Macs can run XP simply so that anyone thinking of mimicking Peter's set-up but worried about leaving XP behind would realise it's no longer a problem.

But yes, I've always been intrigued by the Windows vs. Mac debate.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 11:01 AM   #38
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Graham,

Talking about editing... can you make a recomendation for what you would consider the best output (Render) setting for 720P in Vegas..?


Bo

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Old April 23rd, 2006, 12:09 PM   #39
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WM9 is the only HD one I think.

Recently I've been using Quicktime Pro, which seems easier for simple cutting.

If you make simple cuts or trims using Quicktime Pro it outputs them as mov. files and there seems to be no quality loss - whereas if you output as MP4 there is huge quality loss...
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