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Old May 14th, 2006, 02:44 AM   #1
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Edius, Premiere better than Vegas for HDV?

Hi everyone.

I've just begun work on a great project - a documentary for DVD on the ancient prehistoric sites up and down the British Isles - passionate about it and I know there's a large market for this. It's not been done before.

BUT I'm working with a Z1 in HDV and that presents a workflow problem. As you can imagine, this will be a big project and the final programme will possibly be close to two hours - it may even be a double DVD (You won't believe how much stuff there is out there!). I'll probably end up working from 40 hours of shot material.

It didn't take me long after I started working with intermediate files in Vegas to figure out that the workflow is a complete pain with such a large project. Moreover, without being able to log and batch capture, the sheer volume of captured material is going to be overwhelming unless I painstakingly capture precise clips one by one in Vegas' own capture device. Even then, every clip needs to be doubled up with its intermediary and my disk space is taking an expensive hit. I also HATE not having the security of a batch capture file in case things go pear-shaped.

Now, given the above problems, I am sore tempted to jump ship to Premiere Pro 2.0. We are told it works natively with M2t files AND it does batch capture of HDV. The thing is, I have an old registered copy of Prem 6.5 and so I am entitled to upgrade to Pro 2.0 for a very reasonable 200.

Or Edius? I can get a 'crossgrade' promotion for even less.

I was really, really hoping that Vegas 7.0 would be out after NAB and I was really, really sure it would offer batch capture and improved HDV handling. But Autumn (Fall) is too late for me and there ain't no guarantee that it'll solve my problems even then.

I way, way prefer WORKING with Vegas than Premiere but WORKFLOW is going to be crucial to me in the coming months.

Can Pro 2.0 REALLY work with native M2t efficiently? Does anyone have experience?

Would Edius make my life better?

What would you do?
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Old May 14th, 2006, 09:02 AM   #2
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Edius works as well as anything for HDV. To make the most of it you need a fast pc, preferably one of the new dual core pcs. It is not as fully featured as Vegas or Premiere Pro but it will give you real time performance. It is also extremely reliable. A new version (#4) is expected about the end of June. This is expected to add several new features. You will find out more here:
http://www.canopus.com/home.php
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Old May 14th, 2006, 05:51 PM   #3
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If you update to Vegas 6.0c, native HDV performance will be improved. On a 2CPU dual core system, it'll almost be real-time (29.97fps 90% of the time I believe). It's free, so it's worth a shot?
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Old May 15th, 2006, 11:47 AM   #4
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I'm already on 6d, Glenn. Still not realtime, even Connect HD is sluggish and no batch capture.

I'm afraid David's right. I've been playing with the tryout of Edius Pro 3.

With batch capture and a lightning fast HDV codec that plays realtime with FX at full res. plus promotional crossgrade at £149 inc. tax, I'm impressed.

I'm afraid, despite being nowhere near as powerful as Vegas, at the moment it is THE answer to HDV workflow for me.

I love Vegas and I'm sure I'll be going back to it at some point but workability is the name of the game at this time.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 12:54 PM   #5
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Another Edius Fan

Michael...You will not be disappointed with Edius. I know I have not been. David is right, it's not as flashy as the others, but it is a solid program with excellent "out of the box" HDV capabilities. But...you system does need to be able to handle it. Check out mine below. If it is anything close you should be fine, but with more than 3 streams you would want something faster than that.
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Equipment - Sony HVR-Z1U--Firestore FS-4 Pro HD (40GB)--Cartoni Focus F101
Editing - Canopus Edius Pro 4, Intel Pentium D 940 (3.2 GHz), 2GB, 74GB SATA 10K, 160GB SATAII, 300GB SATA, nVidia GeForce 6800 (256MB), Dell 20 in widescreen flat panel (2007WFP)
http://watersedgefrisco.com
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Old May 15th, 2006, 01:04 PM   #6
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Yeah, Pentium 4 Dual Core, 2.8 Ghz, 1GB and it seems to be doing fine. Don't anticipate having to load the system with too many streams so I'm happy.

Another bonus is that I already have Procoder 2. It'll work great as a plug-in and I can realy get into using it's added control when it comes to exporting for DVD.

Thanks.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 01:15 PM   #7
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I have FX1 and Premiere Pro 2.0. I've been too cheap to get Aspect by Cineform to edit with intemediate files, but I have down two or three shootings where I experimented with native HDV editing. I am actually quite pleased with speed and results. I am sure Pro level guys want to use the intermediate format files for more precised editing and color controls, but I have not had any significant trouble with editing. The last project was a school track meet I shot. I even used slow motion to capture a 100 meter dash, and that came out very nice.

I edit on a self built sytem I put together for about $1k USD. Has on 160 HD, 1 250 Hd, both 7500 RPM. AMD 3800+ Dual core on an ECS N Force board. I am running 2 gigs of memory. It only had PCI Express, for a video slot, and that forced me to buy a new video card, and ATI 700 "something" with 256 mgb memory, and I think that actually helps with HDV processing (I read that somewhere that Premiere Pro works with the video card in processing). I have had occasional trouble with crash in Premiere Pro 2.0. It seems to occur when I am doing excessive scrubbing. As far as preview, I am surprised that previewing without render will give a decent idea how the project will look. It may not be real time, but it is pretty close. Preview is perfect once you render the work area.

I have heard a lot of gripes about Premiere Pro, but with 2.0, I think a lot of issues are addressed. And, as with other on this thread, I have not had a great deal of success with editing native HDV in my stripped down Vegas version found in Movie Studio Platinum.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 01:21 PM   #8
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"Now, given the above problems, I am sore tempted to jump ship to Premiere Pro 2.0. We are told it works natively with M2t files AND it does batch capture of HDV. The thing is, I have an old registered copy of Prem 6.5 and so I am entitled to upgrade to Pro 2.0 for a very reasonable 200."

I am not sure what you mean by batch capture. Yes you can log capture. However, you can capture a full tape using HDVSplit, a feeware product. Get the latest version (.075 I think.) It does auto scene detection, which aren't available in Premiere Pro 2.0 or Vegas in the HDV capture utilities.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 01:43 PM   #9
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Yes, Chris - that's how I thought it would go - capture whole tapes with scene detect. But then I realised the work begins. If I've captured 40 hours of HDV (this is a masive project) where does it all go? Sure, I have to then select the files I want in the final project, delete the unwanted m2t files, convert the remainder to a proxy file if working with Gearshift or Cineform codec if using HD .avis and I'm now so far down the line that I've got no way back to the original timecodes if I have a hard disk disaster 3 months into the edit! I've got duped m2t files and proxy files if I go that route and if I go the Connect HD route I've still got inflated Cineform files that conform to each scene shot - not the (shorter) clips that I'll eventually use. Hardly efficient use of disk space. And the amount of time that's all taken hardly bears thinking about.

Compare that nightmare with in Edius Pro 3.0, going through each tape, logging the precise clips I want, hitting batch capture and putting the kettle on.

Done.

(bar changing the tapes occasionally).

ALL my footage is still archived on tape AND I can rescue the whole project later with frame accuacy if disater strikes!

Just like in the olden days of DV and analogue. Hooray.

It's a no-brainer for me!
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Old May 15th, 2006, 03:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Bott
Compare that nightmare with in Edius Pro 3.0, going through each tape, logging the precise clips I want, hitting batch capture and putting the kettle on.
Logging and batch capture is available on Premiere Pro 2.0 too with HDV native capture. I just tested it and it worked fine.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 04:10 PM   #11
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Yes I know. However, I had read that performance with the raw m2t files is not that good and my system is OK but not blistering. The PP2 tryout has the m2t capabilities hobbled and I suspect that Adobe fear people may be disappointed with the actual workability of this much touted feature unless their PC is top notch. Anyway, I was wary of spending the 200 upgrade to find out when I had the Edius tryout proving itself in front of my eyes. It is important for me to be able to watch my projects at real speed for pace and dynamic.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 05:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Bott
Yes I know. However, I had read that performance with the raw m2t files is not that good and my system is OK but not blistering. The PP2 tryout has the m2t capabilities hobbled and I suspect that Adobe fear people may be disappointed with the actual workability of this much touted feature unless their PC is top notch. Anyway, I was wary of spending the 200 upgrade to find out when I had the Edius tryout proving itself in front of my eyes. It is important for me to be able to watch my projects at real speed for pace and dynamic.
By adding a gig of ram, I don't see why you wouldn't get great HDV performance. Your Dual core should about match mine, though for some reason some people have been down on dual Pentiums. As I said, I get close to real time editing in the simpler edits. When I get home this evening, I'll try posting a rendered clip... I think someone is giving PPro a bad rap...
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Old May 15th, 2006, 05:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
As far as preview, I am surprised that previewing without render will give a decent idea how the project will look. It may not be real time, but it is pretty close. Preview is perfect once you render the work area.
You said it earlier, Chris. This is the point - working with the raw m2ts is still 'on the edge' as far as realtime is concerned.

What impresses me about the performance of the Edius Canopus HQ codec is how like working with good 'ol DV it is. I mean, my jaw was on the floor just now as I slowed down an action clip to 33% and hit play - no render - and the thing played out smooth as glass slo-mo in hi res straight from the timeline.

Sorry, I'm sold.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 05:43 PM   #14
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Do they have and HDV demo for prospective buyers. I would like to check it out. I'll look for their site tonight. Oh, by the way, the issue of having HDV hobbled in demo version had to do with licensing. Same happened with Vegas, as I recall --- and I know even Cineform is now having licensing issues with its rendering side.
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Old May 15th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #15
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Well, that settles that. If I am too cheap to buy Aspect, it looks like Edius is too far out there... Looks like you into $1,400 to get the HDV level. Am I reading that right ??
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