Guide to create a true 24fps HD-DVD from 25fps (or 24fps) HDV at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > High Definition Video Editing Solutions

High Definition Video Editing Solutions
For all HD formats including HDV, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD and others.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 21st, 2007, 02:22 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Posts: 32
Guide to create a true 24fps HD-DVD from 25fps (or 24fps) HDV

Note: if you can shoot directly 24p HDV you only need HDPatch. Just read the following guide, it's the result of an extensive research.

_________________________________________________________________

After a long and sometimes frustrating research, I've found a working workflow to create a great looking hd-dvd (in a normal DVD-R) with original 25p HDV video.

I feel like a pioneer because I think no one in Europe has been able to do this properly.

Instructions:

Software needed:

-Cineform Aspect HD.
-Premiere Pro (or other Cineform's compatible soft).
-A good MPEG2 compressor (I used Canopus Procoder, you can try the one built in Premiere).
-Ulead DVD Movie Factory 6+
-HDPatch: you can find this here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146
you have to be registered in avsforum and you'll be able to download it at the end of the first post. HDPatch is the key of the process so you NEED it.


WORKFLOW:

1.- Shoot 25p if you have an european HDV camera (I haven't tried with 50i yet try it yourself).

2.- Capture with Cineform's HDLink or inside Premiere in a Cineform's project. Before capturing, change cineform settings with FRAME RATE CONVERSION from 25 to 23,98.

3.- Edit your video.

4.- Compress your video into an MPEG2 with 23,98 fps and progressive settings.

5.- Change the extension of the MPEG2 file: it MUST end with .mpg

6.- Open HDPatch and open your .mpg file. It should say it's 1440x1080 16:9 23,98fps. Go to the tab "FrameRate" and select "29,97(1080i)". Now press "Patch Stream".

This step is very important because we labeled the video into a way that Ulead MF 6 doesn't convert it. Ulead soft does not support at this moment 24fps video and it converts to 29,97. This conversion literally ruins our video. But thank god, If we tell to Ulead that our video is 29,97 (even if it's actually 23,98fps), Ulead will continue wihtout converting anything and our final HD-DVD will be a true 24fps disc with great quality.

7.- Open Ulead MF 6+ and create a HD-DVD (NTSC 1440x1080). Follow the steps and you'll get a true 24fps HD-DVD without Ulead terrible conversions.


And that's it. It's easier than I thought and thanks to HDPatch It's finally possible to do a 24fps HD-DVD in our homes.


The final disc has been tested in a Toshiba HD A1, E1 and xbox add-on and works great.
Sergio Garcia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2007, 10:53 AM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
That's very interesting. Not to throw cold water on this, but the A1/E1 will undo your hard efforts by re-interleaving output to 50i/60i.

I don't think any Toshiba HD-DVD player, even the 1080p models pass through 24p yet, just 60p.

The one HD-DVD model that might, is the LG dual format player.

But I don't see any showstoppers. Your workflow is to solve unique problems of conversion for 24p.

If the workflow began as Canon 24F, it's progressively encoded 23.98 frames flagged for pulldown as 29.97 inside 60i mpeg stream. So if you patch it to 23.98, you're going to get the same output without the flags, so it plays back on 24 fps cadence. Ulead MF6+ is probably smart-rendering it this way anyway in the authoring step to HD-DVD. The advantage to the workflow you outlined, would be for an HD-DVD player that would pass through the native encoded stream without re-interleaving it for output, i.e. a player with 24p output. If the HDTV playback monitor can sync its frame rate to a multiple of 24, i.e. 72, 96 etc., the progressive playback will be free of judder.

I don't think it's worth the effort to go progressive if you don't shoot in one of the progressive modes in the first place. That's the only way to avoid deinterlacing artifacts moire, jaggies, combs even with the more sophisticated software deinterlace algorithms like motion adaptive.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2007, 03:34 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Posts: 32
Well, thank you for your thoughts.

This workflow is also useful for europeans who can shot 25 fps progressive. Just like my Canon XH A1 in the 25F mode.

It's true that at this moment there is not any toshiba player that outputs true 24fps. But, with this workflow the video is encoded the same way like studio releases (24fps). And Toshiba players even playing at 60i (1080i) do a great job. The video quality with HDMI is veryyyy veryyyy good and judder is not an issue if the display is good deinterlacing...

I know this are just words, but also I have a real test you can download:

This is my HD-DVD test 1.0
Download it here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VUG4KNN7

It's an ISO file (burn it with IMGBURN or NERO) in a DVD-RW (You don't need to spend DVD-R, rewritables are fine).

It will only play in HD-DVD players. It's been tested in xbox add on, and Toshibas A1 and E1. The magic is that the video was shot in 25f with an european Canon XH A1).

The video itself is 2:39 long and it's a 359 Mb. The firsts shots are not very steady sorry about that (I was in a rush) but this proves to all of you that a great quality HD-DVD is possible with any progessive capable HDV camera.

I will post this also in the Canon XH A1 sample clips forum, and please post there your impressions.
Sergio Garcia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2007, 08:59 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
I will download your video and play it on the A1. I'm certain it will look great. The cliche' is, To those who don't believe, no proof is possible, to those who do believe, no proof is necessary.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2007, 08:36 PM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
My opinion from viewing the clip of Palma de Majorca is that the workflow described above is generally successful as a bridge from 25F to NTSC compatible HD-DVD without having Ulead MF6 re-encode it.

But since you already use the XH-A1, I think it would be preferable to have the Canon factory modify your cam to include native 24F mode support. Here's why.

In the conversion from 25 to 24, a non-standard cadence is inserted, something like this 3:2:3:2:3:2:2:2:3. The resultant playback at a 60 hz monitor refresh rate is very good, except for the expected pulldown judder which is not bad.

The problem occurs when you want to eliminate the 24p pulldown judder altogether, which normally is made possible by a monitor that can display frames at a multiple of 24, typically 72hz. Such a monitor will display the pulldown cadence as 3:3:3:3:3, eliminating the judder frame. My 1080p monitor works this way. When you enable the 72 hz mode, if the cadence is standard 3:2 it is decoded to 3:3 for smooth motion handling. But since your cadence has to account for the insertion of an extra frame to maintain 25P timings, it upsets the 72hz mode causing elements of the image to strobe as you're panning the outside of la Seo. Switching off 72hz mode will eliminate the issue of the strobing, but the pulldown judder remains in play. The judder is minor, but you're soliciting critical review here, so I hope you will receive the observation in the helpful spirit it was intended.

If your Canon camera is made 24F enabled natively, your workflow is simplified, and the minor problem of the 25 to 24 timings is discharged. 24F in the XH-A1 is already flagged 29.97, so you don't have to repatch the headers. Ulead MF6 will not re-encode it, since it's already in a compatible form. And since the cadence is pure 3:2, 72hz refresh rate display is free of judder and strobing.

Other than that, your subject matter is interesting, detailed and colorful, the soundtrack emotional and involving. You'll understand my intention is to critique the technical aspects of the workflow itself, not your artistic skills.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2007, 02:13 PM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Posts: 32
Thank you Tom,

Your comments are very apreciated. As an european user I'm not aware of every aspect of american video standards. So I'm here to learn and help others to learn too.

I didn't know about Canon factory modify. Can I add 24f to my european model? That would be extremely helpful for me and my future HD projects.

Thank you very much. And I'll keep sharing my findings here.
Sergio Garcia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2007, 10:33 PM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio Garcia View Post
Can I add 24f to my european model? That would be extremely helpful for me and my future HD projects.
25f and 50i can be added to U.S. models by sending to Canon factory for modification. I assume the reciprocal is true for the European version as well.
Tom Roper is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > High Definition Video Editing Solutions

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:57 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network