Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > JVC ProHD & MPEG2 Camera Systems > JVC 4K Pro Handheld Camcorders

JVC 4K Pro Handheld Camcorders
GY-LS300, GY-HM200, HM170 and HM-Q10 recording 4K Ultra-High Definition video.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 7th, 2016, 11:20 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbia, MD USA
Posts: 27
Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

I came across this nice comparison video on YouTube -


It mentions a 3D LUT from JVC for use in Premier. Here's a link to a PDF describing the LUT, which also includes a link to download the actual LUT files.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/4k...re_D-LUT-1.pdf

The file with the LUTs contains presets for Adobe, FCPX, Black Magic DaVinci, Atomos and Eizo.
Dave Bittner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2016, 01:36 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 660
Images: 10
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Many thanks for finding this Dave.

The YouTube upload is almost three weeks old so:
WELL DONE JVC FOR NOT BOTHERING TO DROP BY TO TELL US ABOUT IT YOURSELVES!!

Hopeless.
__________________
FCPX/LS300/EX1/FS100/GoPro/Vinten/HotHead/Jib/Track/Dedos/Lightstorm/Coollights
Duncan Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2016, 07:21 PM   #3
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

It was great to see someone do this much needed comparison of the shooting modes.

Based upon my work with the LS300, for an upcoming review, my thought on seeing his ungraded J-log was that -- for example the scene with the pan-up to the sky -- was not dark enough. About one stop too bright. Had, we used a lower exposure the graded version would have shown even more detail.

The LUT was designed for Daylight -- which I assume was about 5600K. That may explain why his overcast shots were a bit blue. But that's easy to fix.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 131
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bittner View Post
It mentions a 3D LUT from JVC for use in Premier. Here's a link to a PDF describing the LUT, which also includes a link to download the actual LUT files.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/4k...re_D-LUT-1.pdf

The file with the LUTs contains presets for Adobe, FCPX, Black Magic DaVinci, Atomos and Eizo.
I downloaded the LUT file and tried it in Adobe After Effects CS5.5, using LUT Buddy to import the LUTs. Of the Tungsten LUTs, only the DaVinci .cube files were compatible with LUT Buddy. The "shaper" version of the DaVinci Tungsten LUT produced obvious color errors and I discarded it. The DaVinci "noshaper" version produced reasonable colors, but saturation was excessive and highlights were blown out. I gave up at that point and went back to my own custom LUTs.

The PDF file linked above provides zero technical documention of the LUTs; it's mostly a guide to using the LUTs in CC Lumetri. That's not even close to an adequate effort on JVC's part. These LUTs fail as a black box solution to grading J-Log-1 video clips. If they're going to be of any use at all, we'll need detailed documentation on how they're designed and tested.
Lee Powell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2016, 08:13 AM   #5
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

The 2 shaper luts are broken. the header that defines the number of lines doe'snt define the right number of lines. There are other problems with the LUTs. But the do much of what's needed.

The major problems is no information is provided by JVC on any of the complex topics which I assume are the topics that have the most interest and topics on which newbies have the least understanding.

This is not new. When HDV came out no context information was provided, so products got negative reviews.

I've spent close to two months building my own understand of the camera and how to work with it in Post. I've written half-dozen big think Handbooks an JVC cameras. In today's markets where everyone wants stuff to be free that no longer makes sense to me.

Right now it's the only camera I would buy -- it's that good. But for some reason JVC -- perhaps because it is an engineers engineering company they expect the buyer to figure everything out. The writer of the LS300 manual does not understand the new stuff and in any case he can't write in English. But, it's always been this way.

I suspect companies have a set of writers who learned English decades ago by going to school after the war At the start they knew nothing about cameras. They translated Japanese engineering docs to English.. Unlikely the old system can or will change.

JVC is a very highly regarded engineering company in Japan. I suspect they believe engineering excellence is why folks buy JVC products and if customers struggle it's a bit of why Japanese boys wear shorts to outdoor gym classes in winter -- it builds character. And, I must say I really do feel proud of the detective work I've done. My old brain can still work hard.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2016, 07:17 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterey, California
Posts: 892
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Steve - I totally agree! I also think it's hands down the best camera out there - I can't fathom why it is so neglected... People go on and on about how great the FS5 (which I had ordered before finding out about the JVC) is despite it's market entry issues, and yet those same people diss or totally ignore the existence of the LS300...

I originally had problems with the LS300, well documented here, but I forgive it because once the glitches were solved it has done everything I need a professional camera to do. I'm on my 3rd short doc and by the end of February will have made 11 regional and state-wide TV spots with it. It paid for itself on the first doc.

I do wish it was getting more attention so JVC would consider introducing a 10 bit model, even if only in 1080p. But I fear it will join the AF100 in the graveyard of great ideas lost.

As for the LUTs, I downloaded them, but decided I don't really want them. I find J-Log1 absolutely simple to grade, and in FCPX I made a preset that solves all my needs.

Although I would like a LUT for the Gratical EVF - but it doesn't handle 3D anyway.
Steve Rosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2016, 03:26 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 9,068
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Quote:
I also think it's hands down the best camera out there - I can't fathom why it is so neglected... People go on and on about how great the FS5

I think the fs5"s popularity has much to do with it's formfactor, size and low body weight, the jvc is a more like a traditional handicam. Furthermore Sony is a much more popular brand then Jvc. Eventhough many have been complaining about small artifacts at 3200 iso and up on the fs5 the low light performance on the jvc is much worse where I would say 3200 iso is borderline usable. It's even worse then a gh4 which many regard as a bad low light camera. It's high gain artifacts are about the ugliest I have seen.
Now I am a bit more forgiving and happily shoot 6400 iso on the gh4 if needed but I can't say the same about the jvc but I will find out in 3 weeks as I will be shooting a wedding with it, to my surprise I have not yet seen a wedding shot with this camera so mine could be the first online. It also shows it's not a popular camera among weddingvideographers and more particularly m4/3 shooters.

Other then that I agree it's a wonderful camera and the images and especially the color looks great, every week I"m finding out more tricks it has hidden up it's sleeves that make shooting run and gun video easier then any other camera with interchangeable lenses I have used.
Noa Put is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2016, 03:48 AM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 131
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
JVC is a very highly regarded engineering company in Japan. I suspect they believe engineering excellence is why folks buy JVC products and if customers struggle it's a bit of why Japanese boys wear shorts to outdoor gym classes in winter -- it builds character. And, I must say I really do feel proud of the detective work I've done.
I worked as a professional engineer for three decades, recently retired from Dolby Laboratories. Good engineers don't just build fine equipment, they document and test their work thoroughly. The job is not done until performance and reliability are independently confirmed with published results.

The issue I have with JVC's J-Log files is not just the lack of documentation. Even if the use of these LUT's was explained in full technical detail, there would still be no means of testing and verifying their logarithmic accuracy in real-world shooting conditions. Without that, JVC's LUT's are no better than any artistic grading LUT crafted subjectively for its esthetic looks.
Lee Powell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2016, 11:19 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterey, California
Posts: 892
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
I think the fs5"s popularity has much to do with it's formfactor, size and low body weight, the jvc is a more like a traditional handicam.
I'm sure that's true - however, I am the type that likes to customize his equipment. I've added a Zacuto Gratical, mounted off the side of the handle, and a shoulder pad under the body (not a Recoil), making the LS300 an excellent small, light camera for handholding (which I do most of the time). However, If I want to use the LCD on a tripod, I can easily flip it out without assembly. I can't do that with the FS5 because the LCD is mounted where I would need to put the EVF - a small point maybe, but in my case an important one.

As for the lack documentation, I'm astounded that JVC seems to expect people to figure it all out on their own (this seems to be a new trend though). The camera is pretty simple compared to, say, the C100 - but the JVC website is probably the worst source of support or information I've seen short of Metabones.
Steve Rosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2016, 01:18 PM   #10
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbia, MD USA
Posts: 27
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

I agree, the lack of proper documentation is frustrating. I shouldn't have to hook the camera up to a WFM to see what the difference is between various camera settings. There should be clear, concise documentation.

Way back when, we bought a Panasonic SDX-900 (still my all-time favorite standard def camera!) and it came with a third-party written guide to using the camera in the real world. I wish JVC would invest in a similar guide, or at least post some demo videos explaining what we should expect.

It's a great little camera, with amazing bang for the buck. I just wish JVC were more helpful in getting us to a deeper understanding of what's going on under the hood.
Dave Bittner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2016, 09:31 PM   #11
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Another comparison clip, plus 3D LUTS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Powell View Post
Without that, JVC's LUT's are no better than any artistic grading LUT crafted subjectively for its esthetic looks.
I suspect the LUTs are exactly mathematically correct for the LS300. Using Resolve I have applied the JVC LUT and then further graded the image (used a curve to increase gamma so less contrast) and then exported this LUT which I can use in the future.

My review is overdue, but if I have time, I'm going to try to grade to more of a -- I hate this word -- filmlook. Which means essentially degrading the LS300's image. :)

Having focused on the ENG market for so long JVC sells into an established base so they have had little need to document fully and no need to do much outreach. Perhaps like Digital Bolex, they expect their products to "sell themselves."

I wonder how many LS300 buyers will really go past HD 422. I also wonder how many JVC folks in the USA really understand the "cinema" functions. They send my questions to Japan, but Japan never responds. Which may mean the only folks who really understand these functions are the engineers themselves. And, they clearly do understand this stuff. But, the language barrier keeps us from communicating directly with them by email. And, the folks who can deal with English may have limited technical understanding.

The other problem may be Japanese itself. When I worked in Tokyo I would try to have my computer engineers translate camera information written in Japanese. They often could not do so. When I could find an engineer who could speak English they were very helpful. Also we draw pictures. (Going to a Japanese MD he communicated by drawing pictures for me. He could understand my English.)

I'm going to try to set up a meeting at NAB with a Japanese engineer.

PS: I sometimes write for DV. Look at whose cameras get written about:

Lust
The Panasonic DVX200's Leica Lens Makes It Stand Out From the Crowd
This Video Showcases the Improvements in the Canon C300 Mark II
Sony PXW-FS5 First Look: Float Like a Butterfly, Sting Like a Bee
FutureVideo's V-Station HD Pro4 DVR is Designed to Meet the Needs of Event Videographers
Multichannel Video Recording Systems for Multi-Camera Event Videography
See the First Sample Footage from the Nikon KeyMission 360
The Mini Makers: Production Successes with the Blackmagic URSA Mini
Sony a7S II Beats Human Eye in Low-Light Test
RED Announces the New 5K Scarlet-W
Review: The Panasonic HC-X1000 Is a "Robust, Well-Rounded 4K Camcorder"
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > JVC ProHD & MPEG2 Camera Systems > JVC 4K Pro Handheld Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network