JVC HD7 and Sony SR12 at DVinfo.net

Steve Mullen · August 19th, 2008, 05:04 PM

Folks asked for outdoor footage. So, I've posted outdoor shots.

http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC....a3b8b68f76cfd/

Some shots are a little unsteady as I was hand-holding both at the same time. I didn't CC any of these shots. All were shot in AUTO.

Remember, I'm not trying to prove one is better than the other!

Also, resolution is clearly lost by the H.264 upload and recompression to FLASH. However, both do -- on fine details like moving leaves -- show the same loss of fine detail as all UNDER-sampled camcorders including the Sony V1. Someday I'll have time to repeat with an EX1.

PS: Indoor shots at: http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC....3b71882e75c31/

Kaushik Parmar · August 20th, 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Folks asked for outdoor footage. So, I've posted outdoor shots.

JVC HD7 verses Sony SR12 in Daylight By Steve Mullen On ExposureRoom

Some shots are a little unsteady as I was hand-holding both at the same time. I didn't CC any of these shots. All were shot in AUTO.

Remember, I'm not trying to prove one is better than the other!

Also, resolution is clearly lost by the H.264 upload and recompression to FLASH. However, both do -- on fine details like moving leaves -- show the same loss of fine detail as all UNDER-sampled camcorders including the Sony V1. Someday I'll have time to repeat with an EX1.

PS: Indoor shots at: Rescued 14wk Kitty in Her First Hour at her New Home By Steve Mullen On ExposureRoom

Steve,

I am afraid I could not found number 1 to 16 on video.

Kaushik

Steve Mullen · August 20th, 2008, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar

Steve,

I am afraid I could not found number 1 to 16 on video.

Kaushik

I forgot to put the numbers on. I guess you just need to write down A or B as you see each clip.

Wayne Avanson · August 20th, 2008, 08:17 AM

OK my best guess, based on the previous, would be
B
A
A
A
B
A
B
B
B
A
B
A
A
B
A
A

what a fun game.

Avey

Dave Blackhurst · August 20th, 2008, 02:35 PM

Again, the different zoom factors make the "test" pretty iffy. But was that the "dreaded white dot" in the second to last clip?? There was a white hot spot (maybe two) hovering on the chair to the left of midframe... dust or "white dot"?

I could make some pretty good guesses again based on lattitude alone... but the inconsistent framing makes even that somewhat subjective.

If you have an old flat flash bracket around, mount the cams side by side and frame them up (two Sonys was easy as they shot the same frame, although the LCD on the CX7 underscans...).

And yes, the compression was pretty brutal on certain aspects of ALL the footage!

Steve Mullen · August 20th, 2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

But was that the "dreaded white dot" in the second to last clip?? There was a white hot spot (maybe two) hovering on the chair to the left of midframe... dust or "white dot"?

White dots? What white dots? :) :) Black camera in 110 heat is not good for the HD7.

Critical evaluation isn't really necessary. My points are:

1) We all know the reviews gave bad marks to the JVC and praised the Sony. Given these reviews it should be OBVIOUS which is which. But, so far, it's not obvious because no one has the correct sequence.

2) The JVC has full manual controls -- the Sony has one or two. (And, the Canon's have no VF.) So, if the quality difference isn't substantial -- many, but certainly not all, would go for full controls.

3) Neither capture PERFECT color. BOTH need CC.

4) One uses easy to edit MPEG-2 while the other uses AVCHD.

5) Both camcorders could be substantially improved and be much better for prosumers.

Kaushik Parmar · August 20th, 2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

White dots? What white dots? :) :) Black camera in 110 heat is not good for the HD7.

Critical evaluation isn't really necessary. My points are:

1) We all know the reviews gave bad marks to the JVC and praised the Sony. Given these reviews it should be OBVIOUS which is which. But, so far, it's not obvious because no one has the correct sequence.

2) The JVC has full manual controls -- the Sony has one or two. (And, the Canon's have no VF.) So, if the quality difference isn't substantial -- many, but certainly not all, would go for full controls.

3) Neither capture PERFECT color. BOTH need CC.

4) One uses easy to edit MPEG-2 while the other uses AVCHD.

5) Both camcorders could be substantially improved and be much better for prosumers.

But then which is superior? SR12, right? So far I have not used SR12, I have HV20 & HD7, as I expressed so many times that I love HD7 much and still my first choice is HD7, though I have seen stunning videos from SR12 as well.

I am with JVC HD7.

Kaushik

Wayne Avanson · August 21st, 2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

White dots? What white dots? :) :) Black camera in 110 heat is not good for the HD7..

tell me about it… But once they're there… I noticed them on your kitty footage too. Mind you, Kaushik seems to be dot free in he's in dusty hot India with his HD7…

How is the kitty by the way?

Avey

Wayne Avanson · August 21st, 2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar

But then which is superior? SR12, right? So far I have not used SR12, I have HV20 & HD7, as I expressed so many times that I love HD7 much and still my first choice is HD7, though I have seen stunning videos from SR12 as well.

I see Sony as always producing consumer goods that make things 'just that little bit warmer' that goes for their cameras that tend towards a yellowish warmness ad their old walkmans that always tended to be a bit over warm in the EQ, as opposed to something like an Aiwa which was sparkling and clear.

Horses for courses I guess.

Avey

Dave Blackhurst · August 21st, 2008, 02:59 PM

OK, so I wasn't hallucinating those dots - that's a deal breaker in my book, no matter HOW good the cam looks!

Wayne -
It's the same reason that we all color grade and correct our footage most of the time... and why every TV show or movie or song you hear has been "tweaked" in post production... we want it to "look" or "sound" a certain way...

Sony sets out to create a look when played back that they feel meets the expectations of most consumers, and frankly with the latest stuff I find myself far less inclined to CC right out of the gate, so maybe there's something "working" there <G>!

I find when I look at outtakes on commercial DVD's that the stuff cut early in the process looks really really BAD - it's probably straight off the shoot... there's a lot of post "sweetening" that goes on before that footage hits the big (or small) screen.

I take the time to try to keep all my chain calibrated, and some parts are no better than "close" to my frustration... but how many TV's out there are anything even in the ball park???? Manufacturers make products to LOOK GOOD, not necessarily be "color accurate". I've seen some really hideous examples of "displays"...

Don't even get into the varying perceptions of the individual viewer!

When considering the much praised HV20, I shot the same sequence with it and several Sony cameras... played that sequence back for myself, but most importantly for people who knew and cared nothing about which footage came out of which camera. Sony "looked better" IMO, and I got the same results from the informal poll. Not that the HV20 looked in any way "bad" (although I disliked the reds and some greens - just too hot in standard settings), just it was different and not my cup of tea. I'd still shoot with one any day and know I could get great footage out of one. BUT, I traded off the Canon controls for the "straight out of the box" Sony look, which I am comfortable with in post...

Offhand I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with the HD7 either <wink>, except those white dots! Would I shoot it over either my SR11 or FX7 or even my little CX7? Probably not, but I wouldn't be complaining if it was the camera I HAD and I wanted to shoot some video. I do see a few things that confirm the choices I've made in equipment, but 999 out of 1000 "average" viewers would probably never even notice the things I do (then again I can't watch the "news" anymore without twitching as I watch some of the footage being broadcast...).

August 19th, 2008, 05:04 PM	#1
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	JVC HD7 and Sony SR12 Folks asked for outdoor footage. So, I've posted outdoor shots. http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC....a3b8b68f76cfd/ Some shots are a little unsteady as I was hand-holding both at the same time. I didn't CC any of these shots. All were shot in AUTO. Remember, I'm not trying to prove one is better than the other! Also, resolution is clearly lost by the H.264 upload and recompression to FLASH. However, both do -- on fine details like moving leaves -- show the same loss of fine detail as all UNDER-sampled camcorders including the Sony V1. Someday I'll have time to repeat with an EX1. PS: Indoor shots at: http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC....3b71882e75c31/ __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; August 19th, 2008 at 07:13 PM.

August 20th, 2008, 08:17 AM	#4
Wayne Avanson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lancashire UK Posts: 496	OK my best guess, based on the previous, would be B A A A B A B B B A B A A B A A what a fun game. Avey

August 20th, 2008, 02:35 PM	#5
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Again, the different zoom factors make the "test" pretty iffy. But was that the "dreaded white dot" in the second to last clip?? There was a white hot spot (maybe two) hovering on the chair to the left of midframe... dust or "white dot"? I could make some pretty good guesses again based on lattitude alone... but the inconsistent framing makes even that somewhat subjective. If you have an old flat flash bracket around, mount the cams side by side and frame them up (two Sonys was easy as they shot the same frame, although the LCD on the CX7 underscans...). And yes, the compression was pretty brutal on certain aspects of ALL the footage!

August 21st, 2008, 02:59 PM	#10
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	OK, so I wasn't hallucinating those dots - that's a deal breaker in my book, no matter HOW good the cam looks! Wayne - It's the same reason that we all color grade and correct our footage most of the time... and why every TV show or movie or song you hear has been "tweaked" in post production... we want it to "look" or "sound" a certain way... Sony sets out to create a look when played back that they feel meets the expectations of most consumers, and frankly with the latest stuff I find myself far less inclined to CC right out of the gate, so maybe there's something "working" there <G>! I find when I look at outtakes on commercial DVD's that the stuff cut early in the process looks really really BAD - it's probably straight off the shoot... there's a lot of post "sweetening" that goes on before that footage hits the big (or small) screen. I take the time to try to keep all my chain calibrated, and some parts are no better than "close" to my frustration... but how many TV's out there are anything even in the ball park???? Manufacturers make products to LOOK GOOD, not necessarily be "color accurate". I've seen some really hideous examples of "displays"... Don't even get into the varying perceptions of the individual viewer! When considering the much praised HV20, I shot the same sequence with it and several Sony cameras... played that sequence back for myself, but most importantly for people who knew and cared nothing about which footage came out of which camera. Sony "looked better" IMO, and I got the same results from the informal poll. Not that the HV20 looked in any way "bad" (although I disliked the reds and some greens - just too hot in standard settings), just it was different and not my cup of tea. I'd still shoot with one any day and know I could get great footage out of one. BUT, I traded off the Canon controls for the "straight out of the box" Sony look, which I am comfortable with in post... Offhand I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with the HD7 either <wink>, except those white dots! Would I shoot it over either my SR11 or FX7 or even my little CX7? Probably not, but I wouldn't be complaining if it was the camera I HAD and I wanted to shoot some video. I do see a few things that confirm the choices I've made in equipment, but 999 out of 1000 "average" viewers would probably never even notice the things I do (then again I can't watch the "news" anymore without twitching as I watch some of the footage being broadcast...).