HD10 Semi-Review at DVinfo.net

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 01:40 PM

I saw it, I held it, I didn't have a tape nor an HD monitor (that's the great thing about working in TV news--things can happen and you're stuck at work late). Sorry about the tape/HD monitor issue.

What I liked:

Even with the bad LCD, you could see how great the quality from DV to SD to HD is! The focus and white balance was easy; the shutter/iris was easy to operate, but there are some issues I'll get to in a moment. It's small, which is a nice change from the XL-1, BetaCams, DVCPro cameras I've been lugging around for over 5 years. Nice size battery.

What I didn't like:

Switching back to DV was tough; you don't just switch it between the four things, you can only switch up and down, not to the four settings (DV, SD, HD, Memory). I'm sure I'll figure it out with the guide (didn't print it out, d'oh!). I set the iris, no problem. I went to the shutter and the image got dark again. When I flipped it off, it was a totally different, accurately exposed image. I think I can get used to it. Not enough buttons and wheels like on an XL-1, but I'll get used to it. It's very small, smaller than a GL2 or VX2000, but that's okay. I'll just get used to it not on my shoulder, use a tripod more often.

Overall:

Sorry again I didn't have the guide, an HD monitor or a tape, but here's what I thought. I put $300 down on this $3195 camera, so I like it enough to buy it.

When I get it this Friday or next Monday, I'll have an extensive review for you all.

heath
www.mpsdigital.com

Paul Mogg · June 17th, 2003, 02:57 PM

Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. Any particular things anyone would like me to try with it I'd be happy to, (apart from chucking it in the garbage as I know a few wise-crackers might suggest!) ..and report back as I have time, just post requests here. As soon as I get my Ikegami HLDV7W back from service I will also do comparison test shoots and see how it holds up.

Cheers

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 03:03 PM

Paul,

The comparison is pretty vital; I heard even hooked up to an HD monitor, the image isn't as good as when you play back from the HD tape. What I'm saying is, you won't see the full quality from the camera until playback. Oh, well...For $3200, what do ya expect (and isn't that a great price???)?

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. Any particular things anyone would like me to try with it I'd be happy to, (apart from chucking it in the garbage as I know a few wise-crackers might suggest!) ..and report back as I have time, just post requests here. As soon as I get my Ikegami HLDV7W back from service I will also do comparison test shoots and see how it holds up.

Cheers -->>>

Steve Mullen · June 17th, 2003, 03:29 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. -->>>

Please confirm the AE system as I explained in MC 101.

If you work with an HD monitor be certain it is being fed at 720p not 1080i. You will lose some in the upconvert in the camera!

Try locking the exposure (MC 101) and panning to bright window.

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 03:35 PM

Steve,

Where is the original post/link to the AE system/MC 101?

I'll probably have that camera again by Friday when I buy it.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. -->>>

Please confirm the AE system as I explained in MC 101.

If you work with an HD monitor be certain it is being fed at 720p not 1080i. You will lose some in the upconvert in the camera!

Try locking the exposure (MC 101) and panning to bright window. -->>>

Paul Mogg · June 17th, 2003, 03:53 PM

Yep, my Ike probably won't be back for a week or so, but I'll try and borrow my brothers for some tests and try some different lighting in his studio as well as outdoors. My main concern is how I'll accurately focus this thing with that low-rez viewfinder, I saw a lot of hunting going on in some of the posted clips, they were obviously using auto-focus, and you have to be even more accurate with higher rez it seems to me. Steve Mullen mentioned something about peaking circuitry in it so I hope that's correct. I also might rent a small steady-cam when I get a chance. $3,200 is a great price, I paid $3,500 for mine from B&H.

Alex Knappenberger · June 17th, 2003, 03:57 PM

Sweet. What I would do personally (and I tried it with some of the clips posted) is shoot in the "HD" mode, and then bring it into Vegas (or whatever software you use) and take it down to SD, that gives some very nice results, when I tried it.

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 04:19 PM

After taxes, it's about $3400. Ah, well...Still low for what I thought it would be. Do you know about that MC 101 Steve Mullen mentioned?

The focus was pretty easy and dead-on, esp. in HD mode. I'm sure in two or three years, I'll buy a bigger, cheaper, better HD camera, but for now, this is perfect.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Yep, my Ike probably won't be back for a week or so, but I'll try and borrow my brothers for some tests and try some different lighting in his studio as well as outdoors. My main concern is how I'll accurately focus this thing with that low-rez viewfinder, I saw a lot of hunting going on in some of the posted clips, they were obviously using auto-focus, and you have to be even more accurate with higher rez it seems to me. Steve Mullen mentioned something about peaking circuitry in it so I hope that's correct. I also might rent a small steady-cam when I get a chance. $3,200 is a great price, I paid $3,500 for mine from B&H. -->>>

Paul Mogg · June 17th, 2003, 05:09 PM

If it does the job, it shure beats $120,000 for a complete Varicam editing system! I guess I'll know soon enough how good it is.

Peter Moore · June 17th, 2003, 05:13 PM

One thing I'd REALLY be interested in knowing about this camera is how downconverted material looks. After all, distirbution is still going to be on NTSC DVD for most of us. 1280 x 720 downscaled to 720 x 480 should look pretty good. Maybe even could make panavision-wide movies (2.35:1) with it.

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 05:24 PM

I don't think it will be that good, but close. The varicam is a 1 million pixel camera that records and not in 1080i, whereas the HD10 is a 840,000 pixels camera. Not bad...

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : If it does the job, it shure beats $120,000 for a complete Varicam editing system! I guess I'll know soon enough how good it is. -->>>

Alex Knappenberger · June 17th, 2003, 05:47 PM

Heath, it's not only the pixels, brotha!

On the samples I've seen from the JVC "HD" camera, they all still had that 1CCD JVC look, that I can't really describe, but ALL 1CCD JVC cameras have it. I don't know if it's the bad dynamic range or what...

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 05:58 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Heath, it's not only the pixels, brotha!

On the samples I've seen from the JVC "HD" camera, they all still had that 1CCD JVC look, that I can't really describe, but ALL 1CCD JVC cameras have it. I don't know if it's the bad dynamic range or what... -->>>

Hmmm, interesting. I'll have to track down a one ccd JVC camera and see what's up!

heath

Alex Knappenberger · June 17th, 2003, 06:36 PM

Yeah, I think someone mentioned that this camera had a good dynamic range, in another post, I think they were just making up hype or something, because on the samples I seen it looked like dynamic range isn't good at all, on top of that, CNET's review also states that.

"Unfortunately, the color subtlety and latitude--the ability to handle a range of brightness without blowing out highlights or losing shadow detail--aren't nearly as impressive as the resolution. In fact, they're inferior to what's available from similarly priced standard-definition cameras. Why? Any competing SD camera will likely have a three-chip imaging system, which handles the nuances of color and brightness substantially better than the JVC's single chip. Another weakness: The HD1 delivers a fairly marginal performance in low light. It's important to realize that, when it comes to image quality, resolution isn't the whole picture."

http://reviews.cnet.com/JVC_GR_HD1/4...tml?tag=review

Heath McKnight · June 17th, 2003, 06:52 PM

The HD10 is different, but can be color corrected in FCP, After Effects, etc. Thanks to my friend for pointing this out to me.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Yeah, I think someone mentioned that this camera had a good dynamic range, in another post, I think they were just making up hype or something, because on the samples I seen it looked like dynamic range isn't good at all, on top of that, CNET's review also states that.

"Unfortunately, the color subtlety and latitude--the ability to handle a range of brightness without blowing out highlights or losing shadow detail--aren't nearly as impressive as the resolution. In fact, they're inferior to what's available from similarly priced standard-definition cameras. Why? Any competing SD camera will likely have a three-chip imaging system, which handles the nuances of color and brightness substantially better than the JVC's single chip. Another weakness: The HD1 delivers a fairly marginal performance in low light. It's important to realize that, when it comes to image quality, resolution isn't the whole picture."

http://reviews.cnet.com/JVC_GR_HD1/4...tml?tag=review -->>>

June 17th, 2003, 01:40 PM	#1
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	HD10 Semi-Review I saw it, I held it, I didn't have a tape nor an HD monitor (that's the great thing about working in TV news--things can happen and you're stuck at work late). Sorry about the tape/HD monitor issue. What I liked: Even with the bad LCD, you could see how great the quality from DV to SD to HD is! The focus and white balance was easy; the shutter/iris was easy to operate, but there are some issues I'll get to in a moment. It's small, which is a nice change from the XL-1, BetaCams, DVCPro cameras I've been lugging around for over 5 years. Nice size battery. What I didn't like: Switching back to DV was tough; you don't just switch it between the four things, you can only switch up and down, not to the four settings (DV, SD, HD, Memory). I'm sure I'll figure it out with the guide (didn't print it out, d'oh!). I set the iris, no problem. I went to the shutter and the image got dark again. When I flipped it off, it was a totally different, accurately exposed image. I think I can get used to it. Not enough buttons and wheels like on an XL-1, but I'll get used to it. It's very small, smaller than a GL2 or VX2000, but that's okay. I'll just get used to it not on my shoulder, use a tripod more often. Overall: Sorry again I didn't have the guide, an HD monitor or a tape, but here's what I thought. I put $300 down on this $3195 camera, so I like it enough to buy it. When I get it this Friday or next Monday, I'll have an extensive review for you all. heath www.mpsdigital.com

June 17th, 2003, 02:57 PM	#2
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. Any particular things anyone would like me to try with it I'd be happy to, (apart from chucking it in the garbage as I know a few wise-crackers might suggest!) ..and report back as I have time, just post requests here. As soon as I get my Ikegami HLDV7W back from service I will also do comparison test shoots and see how it holds up. Cheers __________________ Paul

June 17th, 2003, 03:29 PM	#4
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. -->>> Please confirm the AE system as I explained in MC 101. If you work with an HD monitor be certain it is being fed at 720p not 1080i. You will lose some in the upconvert in the camera! Try locking the exposure (MC 101) and panning to bright window. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 17th, 2003, 03:53 PM	#6
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Yep, my Ike probably won't be back for a week or so, but I'll try and borrow my brothers for some tests and try some different lighting in his studio as well as outdoors. My main concern is how I'll accurately focus this thing with that low-rez viewfinder, I saw a lot of hunting going on in some of the posted clips, they were obviously using auto-focus, and you have to be even more accurate with higher rez it seems to me. Steve Mullen mentioned something about peaking circuitry in it so I hope that's correct. I also might rent a small steady-cam when I get a chance. $3,200 is a great price, I paid $3,500 for mine from B&H. __________________ Paul

June 17th, 2003, 05:09 PM	#9
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	If it does the job, it shure beats $120,000 for a complete Varicam editing system! I guess I'll know soon enough how good it is. __________________ Paul

June 17th, 2003, 03:03 PM	#3
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Paul, The comparison is pretty vital; I heard even hooked up to an HD monitor, the image isn't as good as when you play back from the HD tape. What I'm saying is, you won't see the full quality from the camera until playback. Oh, well...For $3200, what do ya expect (and isn't that a great price???)? heath <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. Any particular things anyone would like me to try with it I'd be happy to, (apart from chucking it in the garbage as I know a few wise-crackers might suggest!) ..and report back as I have time, just post requests here. As soon as I get my Ikegami HLDV7W back from service I will also do comparison test shoots and see how it holds up. Cheers -->>>

June 17th, 2003, 03:35 PM	#5
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Steve, Where is the original post/link to the AE system/MC 101? I'll probably have that camera again by Friday when I buy it. heath <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Thanks for the review Heath. I will have my HD1OU in my hands tomorrow, so I will start to give it a thorough work-out. -->>> Please confirm the AE system as I explained in MC 101. If you work with an HD monitor be certain it is being fed at 720p not 1080i. You will lose some in the upconvert in the camera! Try locking the exposure (MC 101) and panning to bright window. -->>>

June 17th, 2003, 03:57 PM	#7
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Sweet. What I would do personally (and I tried it with some of the clips posted) is shoot in the "HD" mode, and then bring it into Vegas (or whatever software you use) and take it down to SD, that gives some very nice results, when I tried it.

June 17th, 2003, 04:19 PM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	After taxes, it's about $3400. Ah, well...Still low for what I thought it would be. Do you know about that MC 101 Steve Mullen mentioned? The focus was pretty easy and dead-on, esp. in HD mode. I'm sure in two or three years, I'll buy a bigger, cheaper, better HD camera, but for now, this is perfect. heath <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Yep, my Ike probably won't be back for a week or so, but I'll try and borrow my brothers for some tests and try some different lighting in his studio as well as outdoors. My main concern is how I'll accurately focus this thing with that low-rez viewfinder, I saw a lot of hunting going on in some of the posted clips, they were obviously using auto-focus, and you have to be even more accurate with higher rez it seems to me. Steve Mullen mentioned something about peaking circuitry in it so I hope that's correct. I also might rent a small steady-cam when I get a chance. $3,200 is a great price, I paid $3,500 for mine from B&H. -->>>

June 17th, 2003, 05:13 PM	#10
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	One thing I'd REALLY be interested in knowing about this camera is how downconverted material looks. After all, distirbution is still going to be on NTSC DVD for most of us. 1280 x 720 downscaled to 720 x 480 should look pretty good. Maybe even could make panavision-wide movies (2.35:1) with it.

June 17th, 2003, 05:24 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't think it will be that good, but close. The varicam is a 1 million pixel camera that records and not in 1080i, whereas the HD10 is a 840,000 pixels camera. Not bad... heath <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : If it does the job, it shure beats $120,000 for a complete Varicam editing system! I guess I'll know soon enough how good it is. -->>> __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 17th, 2003, 05:47 PM	#12
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Heath, it's not only the pixels, brotha! On the samples I've seen from the JVC "HD" camera, they all still had that 1CCD JVC look, that I can't really describe, but ALL 1CCD JVC cameras have it. I don't know if it's the bad dynamic range or what...

June 17th, 2003, 05:58 PM	#13
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Heath, it's not only the pixels, brotha! On the samples I've seen from the JVC "HD" camera, they all still had that 1CCD JVC look, that I can't really describe, but ALL 1CCD JVC cameras have it. I don't know if it's the bad dynamic range or what... -->>> Hmmm, interesting. I'll have to track down a one ccd JVC camera and see what's up! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 17th, 2003, 06:36 PM	#14
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Yeah, I think someone mentioned that this camera had a good dynamic range, in another post, I think they were just making up hype or something, because on the samples I seen it looked like dynamic range isn't good at all, on top of that, CNET's review also states that. "Unfortunately, the color subtlety and latitude--the ability to handle a range of brightness without blowing out highlights or losing shadow detail--aren't nearly as impressive as the resolution. In fact, they're inferior to what's available from similarly priced standard-definition cameras. Why? Any competing SD camera will likely have a three-chip imaging system, which handles the nuances of color and brightness substantially better than the JVC's single chip. Another weakness: The HD1 delivers a fairly marginal performance in low light. It's important to realize that, when it comes to image quality, resolution isn't the whole picture." http://reviews.cnet.com/JVC_GR_HD1/4...tml?tag=review

June 17th, 2003, 06:52 PM	#15
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	The HD10 is different, but can be color corrected in FCP, After Effects, etc. Thanks to my friend for pointing this out to me. heath <<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Yeah, I think someone mentioned that this camera had a good dynamic range, in another post, I think they were just making up hype or something, because on the samples I seen it looked like dynamic range isn't good at all, on top of that, CNET's review also states that. "Unfortunately, the color subtlety and latitude--the ability to handle a range of brightness without blowing out highlights or losing shadow detail--aren't nearly as impressive as the resolution. In fact, they're inferior to what's available from similarly priced standard-definition cameras. Why? Any competing SD camera will likely have a three-chip imaging system, which handles the nuances of color and brightness substantially better than the JVC's single chip. Another weakness: The HD1 delivers a fairly marginal performance in low light. It's important to realize that, when it comes to image quality, resolution isn't the whole picture." http://reviews.cnet.com/JVC_GR_HD1/4...tml?tag=review -->>> __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog