Just got mu JY-HD1OU

Steve Mullen · June 18th, 2003, 11:48 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :If I want the lens to perform it will need to be in the middle ground.--->

The number of folks shooting video in the world who worry about what the aperature is at with a zoom lens has got to be near zero. But if you have time to worry, basically you step open and closed till you reach the point of no change. One point is F1.8 and the other is F22. Now click up a number to get into the middle range. Actually this Film 101 concept assumes you've made bench tests to determine where the sweet point is. We really have no idea about the JVC lens other than don't go near F22 or near F1.8. But this isn't rocket science. Sort of like buy low and sell high. :)

<--- If I want to shoot with extreme DOF I will want to stop down as far as I can without the shutter kicking in to 1/15th as the GR-HD1U does. --->

With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more.

<--- If I am shooting miniatures, then I must have and know where my f-stop is. --->

The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust.

< -- The 8yr old VX1000 did this. Every camera in this price range ( $3,400+ ) has allowed independent shutter/Iris settings since late 1995. --->

I've had dozens camera with "features" like self-timer and INT REC -- used each about once. Who cares how many buttons a camera has. It only needs to do what you need it to do. (OK -- the old fashioned lens rings are a hell of lot better! But they got removed from prosumer cameras over a decade ago. Damn!)

<-- I might want to pan into a dark part of a scene to only track into normal exposed setting. --->

And you might also want to capture a scene with 10 stop range of light. You can't do it with any $3500 video camera. Knowing this, you plan the shot differently -- or control the light.

<--- Maybe the HD10 is different or I have still have yet to figure out the way to make sure that shutter always stays at 1/60th and never changes while I have what ever aperture setting I want. --->

I expect Paul will let us all know very soon!

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 12:54 AM

Well I'm very frustrated right now as I know I shot some reasonably good stuff today, but I cannot view it as I cannot get either of the Mac utilities to capture from my camera, and I don't have a tape for my DVHS deck that arrived today (because I didn't think I'd need it yet) and the PC capture utility won't intstall on Win 2000 which is all I have, and when I tried to install on my PC at work that DOES have XP, the damn thing wouldn't accept the software serial #, and to top it all off, my HD monitor hasn't arrived yet. Ahhhh!!
Oh well, better luck tomorrow I hope! I better go before I get thrown off this foum for swearing!

See ya

Michael Pappas · June 19th, 2003, 02:13 AM

<<<I've posted Exposure Control 101 on Sunday. You said if anyone had any ideas about HOW to control A/S they should post and you would try again.>>>

I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. Aperture didn't move, but the shutter would change when it wanted to. If I did the reverse and left the shutter on screen at 1/60th, the aperture would adjust when it wanted too. Don't know what else to do.
You say the HD10 is different, maybe it is in this area too!

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Steve Mullen · June 19th, 2003, 10:25 PM

<<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>>

Michael, you are still not doing it right.

Did you read MC 101?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892

1. Set shutter-speed.

2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again.

3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.)

4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds.

5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris.

For the next shot repeat 3 through 5.

Michael Pappas · June 20th, 2003, 02:02 AM

Thanks steve! I will try it again tomorrow.

Michael

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>>

Michael, you are still not doing it right.

Did you read MC 101?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892

1. Set shutter-speed.

2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again.

3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.)

4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds.

5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris.

For the next shot repeat 3 through 5. -->>>

Craig Jones · June 20th, 2003, 07:15 AM

Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out.

You get your choice of 1:
- shutter/aperture priority
- exposure control
- backlight
- program AE

Craig Jones · June 20th, 2003, 08:33 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen
With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more.

...

The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust.
--->

I don't know why you would say this. There's nothing magic about small sensors that makes the DOF math work any different. I can easily demonstrate DOF differences on my GR-HD1 and have already done so. f/22 is very high for a sensor that small and I suspect it's a compensated number. I don't believe the physical aperture changes as much as one would expect.

Also, I shoot miniatures although I call it macro. Your description of how to do that, at least with these cameras, is non-sensical.

When shooting macro, you'd like to fix the aperture and control the exposure to make sure you don't blow out your subject. That is impossible with the GR-HD1. The best I can do is use the exposure compensation and hope that the camera chooses a high enough aperture to provide DOF.

My application is underwater, btw. Half of everything I shoot is macro and lighting is not always easily controlled. It would be nice if the camera was. If MC 101 worked I'd be happy.

Yang Wen · June 20th, 2003, 11:07 AM

You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck.

Heath McKnight · June 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM

You are blasting us when all you've seen is a simple screenshot. How about you hold off on those comments until you actually demo the camera.

Best,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck. -->>>

Yang Wen · June 20th, 2003, 02:25 PM

A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment.

Heath McKnight · June 20th, 2003, 02:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment. -->>>

I still disagree, having seen the images and handled the camera. I think the images are much better than the DVX 100.

Steve Mullen · June 21st, 2003, 02:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out.

You get your choice of 1:
- shutter/aperture priority
- exposure control
- backlight
- program AE -->>>

I belive you -- although the manual does not say this.

It says the EC can't be used with:

SPOTLIGHT
SNOW
BACKLIGHT

I can't see why Snow is listed. Perhaps it's a bug in the manual and should say S/A.

But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations.

Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting?

Yang Wen · June 21st, 2003, 07:41 AM

With all this talk of how great it is, i'm surprised new owners havent put up any video clips of stuff shot on it. Please some one do so. I'd like to be proved wrong in this case, but I doubt it'll be that. Maybe you'r just embarrased to put up clips from this cam?

Peter Moore · June 21st, 2003, 08:10 AM

Yeah I'd like to see some clips too.

Craig Jones · June 21st, 2003, 08:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen

But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations.

Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting? -->>>

Yes. I tried carefully and made sure I held the button for a long time. On my camera at least, you get one of the options but they are all mutually exclusive. SNOW and BACKLIGHT are program AE's which also get disabled by exposure comp or S/A.

If they'd just allow exposure comp along with S/A we'd be set.

June 18th, 2003, 11:48 PM	#16
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :If I want the lens to perform it will need to be in the middle ground.---> The number of folks shooting video in the world who worry about what the aperature is at with a zoom lens has got to be near zero. But if you have time to worry, basically you step open and closed till you reach the point of no change. One point is F1.8 and the other is F22. Now click up a number to get into the middle range. Actually this Film 101 concept assumes you've made bench tests to determine where the sweet point is. We really have no idea about the JVC lens other than don't go near F22 or near F1.8. But this isn't rocket science. Sort of like buy low and sell high. :) <--- If I want to shoot with extreme DOF I will want to stop down as far as I can without the shutter kicking in to 1/15th as the GR-HD1U does. ---> With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more. <--- If I am shooting miniatures, then I must have and know where my f-stop is. ---> The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust. < -- The 8yr old VX1000 did this. Every camera in this price range ( $3,400+ ) has allowed independent shutter/Iris settings since late 1995. ---> I've had dozens camera with "features" like self-timer and INT REC -- used each about once. Who cares how many buttons a camera has. It only needs to do what you need it to do. (OK -- the old fashioned lens rings are a hell of lot better! But they got removed from prosumer cameras over a decade ago. Damn!) <-- I might want to pan into a dark part of a scene to only track into normal exposed setting. ---> And you might also want to capture a scene with 10 stop range of light. You can't do it with any $3500 video camera. Knowing this, you plan the shot differently -- or control the light. <--- Maybe the HD10 is different or I have still have yet to figure out the way to make sure that shutter always stays at 1/60th and never changes while I have what ever aperture setting I want. ---> I expect Paul will let us all know very soon! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 19th, 2003, 12:54 AM	#17
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Well I'm very frustrated right now as I know I shot some reasonably good stuff today, but I cannot view it as I cannot get either of the Mac utilities to capture from my camera, and I don't have a tape for my DVHS deck that arrived today (because I didn't think I'd need it yet) and the PC capture utility won't intstall on Win 2000 which is all I have, and when I tried to install on my PC at work that DOES have XP, the damn thing wouldn't accept the software serial #, and to top it all off, my HD monitor hasn't arrived yet. Ahhhh!! Oh well, better luck tomorrow I hope! I better go before I get thrown off this foum for swearing! See ya __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 10:25 PM	#19
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>> Michael, you are still not doing it right. Did you read MC 101? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892 1. Set shutter-speed. 2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again. 3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.) 4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds. 5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris. For the next shot repeat 3 through 5. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM	#24
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	You are blasting us when all you've seen is a simple screenshot. How about you hold off on those comments until you actually demo the camera. Best, heath <<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck. -->>> __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 20th, 2003, 02:57 PM	#26
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment. -->>> I still disagree, having seen the images and handled the camera. I think the images are much better than the DVX 100. __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 19th, 2003, 02:13 AM	#18
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	<<<I've posted Exposure Control 101 on Sunday. You said if anyone had any ideas about HOW to control A/S they should post and you would try again.>>> I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. Aperture didn't move, but the shutter would change when it wanted to. If I did the reverse and left the shutter on screen at 1/60th, the aperture would adjust when it wanted too. Don't know what else to do. You say the HD10 is different, maybe it is in this area too! Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com

June 20th, 2003, 02:02 AM	#20
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Thanks steve! I will try it again tomorrow. Michael <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>> Michael, you are still not doing it right. Did you read MC 101? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892 1. Set shutter-speed. 2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again. 3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.) 4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds. 5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris. For the next shot repeat 3 through 5. -->>>

June 20th, 2003, 07:15 AM	#21
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out. You get your choice of 1: - shutter/aperture priority - exposure control - backlight - program AE

June 20th, 2003, 08:33 AM	#22
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more. ... The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust. ---> I don't know why you would say this. There's nothing magic about small sensors that makes the DOF math work any different. I can easily demonstrate DOF differences on my GR-HD1 and have already done so. f/22 is very high for a sensor that small and I suspect it's a compensated number. I don't believe the physical aperture changes as much as one would expect. Also, I shoot miniatures although I call it macro. Your description of how to do that, at least with these cameras, is non-sensical. When shooting macro, you'd like to fix the aperture and control the exposure to make sure you don't blow out your subject. That is impossible with the GR-HD1. The best I can do is use the exposure compensation and hope that the camera chooses a high enough aperture to provide DOF. My application is underwater, btw. Half of everything I shoot is macro and lighting is not always easily controlled. It would be nice if the camera was. If MC 101 worked I'd be happy.

June 20th, 2003, 11:07 AM	#23
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck.

June 20th, 2003, 02:25 PM	#25
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment.

June 21st, 2003, 02:54 AM	#27
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out. You get your choice of 1: - shutter/aperture priority - exposure control - backlight - program AE -->>> I belive you -- although the manual does not say this. It says the EC can't be used with: SPOTLIGHT SNOW BACKLIGHT I can't see why Snow is listed. Perhaps it's a bug in the manual and should say S/A. But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations. Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 21st, 2003, 07:41 AM	#28
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	With all this talk of how great it is, i'm surprised new owners havent put up any video clips of stuff shot on it. Please some one do so. I'd like to be proved wrong in this case, but I doubt it'll be that. Maybe you'r just embarrased to put up clips from this cam?

June 21st, 2003, 08:10 AM	#29
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Yeah I'd like to see some clips too.

June 21st, 2003, 08:21 AM	#30
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations. Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting? -->>> Yes. I tried carefully and made sure I held the button for a long time. On my camera at least, you get one of the options but they are all mutually exclusive. SNOW and BACKLIGHT are program AE's which also get disabled by exposure comp or S/A. If they'd just allow exposure comp along with S/A we'd be set.

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