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JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U
All about the original single-CCD HDV camcorders from JVC.


 
 
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Old August 17th, 2003, 06:35 AM   #1
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reality check

To say we're sitting on a gold mine is an understatement. There are rumors that JVC will soon be doing a road show demonstrating the HD10 and presenting a complete end-to-end production package for under $12,000. That's about 1/3 the price of low budget HD production in the "other" world. Given that we've been handed this steak on a golden platter, it really doesn't make sense for people to be complaining about the camera's deficiencies. If it only had three chips, if it only had DSP, if it only had a detachable lens.....sorry but adding these features would drive the price up into at least the high teens. We need to buck up and get behind this technology now. The rest of the competition is surely hoping that we'll continue to wait for "next year's" CES or NAB and if we procrastinate enough years JVC will have dropped this line, Sony will have introduced its new "economical" $25,000 HD camcorder and we'll be right back where we were a year ago. So this is the moment of truth, folks....either we put up or shut up. You can be sure JVC is anxiously watching the numbers. If the support isn't there, maybe they'll be the first to pull the plug. Let's not let that happen under our watch.
One more thing--we still need an affordable book that explains the intricacies of true low budget HD production (ie, the $12,000 figure mentioned above is actually about $10,000 in street prices). I would like someone to tell me exactly what I need to get to establish an HD studio. There's been so much confusion on this front that nobody seems to want to make a move. Please tell me what's the best tools to get and I'll sign the check! Steve, any chance of separating your software program from the book and offering them individually? If not you, then who?
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Old August 17th, 2003, 07:57 AM   #2
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-lynne wrote: " Steve, any chance of separating your software program from the book and offering them individually? "

what software program?
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Old August 17th, 2003, 08:27 AM   #3
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Reality check?... we should rush out and buy this "work in progress" instead of waiting a year or two for more mature products? Personally, I can wait a little longer, and in the meantime concentrate on getting the best possible results from current DV technology.

Don't get me wrong, the HD10 is a fascinating product and I wish JVC well with it. I enjoy reading about everyone's experiences. But there just seem to be too many issues for me to plunk down that kind of money on top of my existing investment in cameras, accessories, computers, hard drives, etc. I'll wait to see what Canon and Sony come out with (whenever that may be), then probably wait another year for them to work out all the bugs. I don't need to be the first kid on the block with an HD camera ;-)
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Old August 17th, 2003, 10:22 AM   #4
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But we're talking $10,000!!! Someone told me the other day that Wash.DC videographers are charging $200 to burn a DVD. Most people don't shoot a wedding for less than $1000 anymore. A brand new Hyundai Accent costs $10,000. Can you imagine where the auto industry would go if people agonized over a car purchase for years like what you're suggesting? Do you really believe that Sony, who's "entry level" HD platform is close to $100,000 is going to try to lower that margin down to $10,000??? I suggest selling off a bunch of gear you've currently got that's gathering dust and invest the money in HD. Simplify your life--get rid of cable modems and go back to dial-up. Cancel your magazine and newspaper subscriptions and go to the library instead. Don't eat out so much but get into bagging lunch. Quit your exercise club and go walking outside. I could go on and on but you get the point--with a few easy sacrifices you could free up $10,000 and get on the HD train while it's still affordable (RE: before Sony takes control).
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Old August 17th, 2003, 10:47 AM   #5
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I think this is alarmist. Nobody, not even Sony, can turn back the clock. The world is making the shift to HD. The only thing that has been holding it back is the price of the television sets, and that's finally coming down. It's affordable right now. Besides, if Sony wants consumers to buy their HD TVs, they'll have to give them a camcorder capable of taking advantage of them. It'll be the same thing we got now -- high end gear with unreasonably high prices propped up by prosumer lines that have been artificially downgraded by intentionally leaving out things that pros demand. Since JVC has already done that with this camcorder, I don't see how they're supposed to be some kind of heroes. Also, forgive me, but I don't plan to sacrifice everything I own to try and "save" a gigantic Japanese electronics manufacturer, and neither does anybody else.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 01:06 PM   #6
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<<<-- Originally posted by Lynne Whelden : with a few easy sacrifices you could free up $10,000 and get on the HD train while it's still affordable (RE: before Sony takes control). -->>>

Come on... I *could* drop $10,000 tomorrow if I wanted to without a lifestyle change. But the point is that I don't see it as a good investment at this time. Early adopters always get screwed... a year or two later everybody can buy a better, more mature product for much less, and you're stuck with an orphan. Such is the price you pay to have the latest, greatest thing.

And you keep comparing the HD-10 to $100,000 Sony systems, which is absurd. Those cameras and decks are much higher quality pro gear with better lenses and controls.

JVC, Sony, Panasonic and all the rest are businesses which exist to make profits. If there's demand for a product at a certain price point they will sell it. Considering the current state of the economy it's understandable that companies are less likely to take a chance with new technologies.

But hey, I think it's great that you and others are so excited about the prospects for the HD10. Go for it... and let us know how it works out!
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Old August 17th, 2003, 01:10 PM   #7
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<<<-- The world is making the shift to HD. -->>>

Well, not really. The PAL side of the world (which is, what, like 70% of the TV's out there?) has no real interest in HD. They're apparently quite content with their 16:9 PAL TV's.

<<<-- The only thing that has been holding it back is the price of the television sets, and that's finally coming down. -->>>

The price of TV's is coming down, but what's holding back the acceptance of HD is this: the average consumer has no interest in HD. Broadcasters want it, and heaven knows the TV manufacturers want it, but the average consumer doesn't care. HD penetration in the US marketplace is at, what, maybe 2%? Consumers are plenty happy with NTSC and PAL. There is no consumer clamor for HD.

HD is cool. The HDV format looks very interesting indeed. The JVC HD1/HD10 are not the cameras that pros are waiting for. Give us the tools we need to do the job, and we'll buy it for sure. We don't necessarily NEED interchangeable lenses, etc. - but you've got to at least be able to set the shutter speed and the aperture at the same time. You've got to have some way to get decent audio into it, not through some Beachtek-style adapter. It should have more than 4 stops of latitude. You should be able to control sharpness and edge enhancement, just like you can on any halfway credible "prosumer DV" camera. You should be able to at least tell what f-stop you're at. You should be able to connect it to a high-res monitor and actually be able to focus, without a delay between what you change on the lens and what the monitor displays. And would zebras be too much to ask? If Panasonic can include all those features on a $1200 camera (excepting the XLR's) then why would it be unreasonable to expect them on a $3500 camera?

Give us a good, workable, usable tool and you'll sell all you can make. The HD1 is an amazing accomplishment, but by JVC's own admission, the camera is not designed for professionals. Surely they can give us an HD2, implement these features, and even raise the price, and it will be gladly adopted.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 04:25 PM   #8
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<<<-- Well, not really. The PAL side of the world (which is, what, like 70% of the TV's out there?) has no real interest in HD. They're apparently quite content with their 16:9 PAL TV's.
-->>>

hehe Well not in my PAL part of the world. Everyone wants HD here but no one is giving it to us quick enough nore the HD gear to go with it. :)

On all the other stuff.. very well said :D
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Old August 17th, 2003, 05:38 PM   #9
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you said put up or shut up....thats what im doing, i should be finishing my first short with the hd10 in a few days and then you can see a good example of what it might be capable of. i cant afford dollies or pro equipment but that doesnt mean i cant try.

i definately wish you could control the aperture and shutter at the same time, but so far ive been able to deal with it just fine.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 07:07 PM   #10
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<<<-- Well, not really. The PAL side of the world (which is, what, like 70% of the TV's out there?) has no real interest in HD. They're apparently quite content with their 16:9 PAL TV's.
-->>>

I wasn't trying to say its going to happen tomorrow. I'm sure it will be years. But there's more and more programming to watch (three local stations in my market), and judging by the mob in front of the HD televisions at Best Buy, I'd say regular consumers would love to have it in their homes.

By the way, I'm not knocking the HD10. I think its really exciting. I'd buy one if I could afford it easily, but my emphasis right now is putting together a decent lighting package and sound equipment. In a year or two I'll definitely make the jump to HD. Hopefully it will be on a GL3!

Joe, I would love to see your movie. Please let us know when its done. What kind of software would I need to watch it in all of its hi-rez glory? How could I get a copy? Are you going to offer a download? I don't even want to think how long THAT will take to download.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 07:18 PM   #11
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Re: reality check

<<<-- Originally posted by Lynne Whelden : We still need an affordable book that explains the intricacies of true low budget HD production. I would like someone to tell me exactly what I need to get to establish an HD studio. There's been so much confusion on this front that nobody seems to want to make a move. -->>>

Here's an update. My HD10 review will appear next month in Video systems. I've just finished reviewing a JVC D-VHS deck: the VD400.

I've finished the necessary software for real-time FCP editing.

I've finished the "HD1/HD10 Shooting Guide" and I've almost finished the "OS X HDV Production Guide."

So when will it all ship? At this point my goal is before Labor Day so folks will have a block of time to get into it.

To make life simple, the bundle contains everything for $100. Although at some future point I might also include a "Guide to the Aspect HD" product. (I expect to receive it this week for a review.) Everyone who orders now will get an update at the beginning of October.

I'm calling the bundle "4HDV" because I expect more HDV products to arrive over the next year. Obviously, only SD and HD from the JVC camcorders is covered.

You can order 4HDV at:

www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
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Old August 18th, 2003, 07:39 AM   #12
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I just want to say that I support Lynne's point of view...

We all know the camera's limitations,
but there is no such thing as first generation perfection.

It's sort of like a rought cut.

Now, the decision is balancing the pros and cons-
for me, I am willing to tolerate the problems with the camera
in order to begin shooting content in 720p...

Why? Because I have no choice- at that price point, what are my options?

I have an XL1, and it's great, but I would take the HD10 any day over the XL1, simply because I know that DV footage is limited and HDV footage is the future...

My plan is this- shoot for the next 6 months, then edit when the tools become more available. Learn about HD with this little camera.

When the 2nd generation model comes out (from any manufacturer, not necessarily JVC)... I will buy that too, because the 2900 bucks I spent on the HD10 isn't at a level where I will be protective and resist the next generation.

I agree with Lynne that it's almost a situation where you want to be part of the development of a new technology.

I compare it to this- I have a G4 right now, and it's great, but I also bought an Apple IIe 18 years ago, and almost every model they've produced- I NEVER LET THE LIMITS OF A PARTICULAR SYSTEM prevent me from supporting the evolution of the technology...

Botton line? Don't buy it if you really can't afford it, but if you can- take a leap of faith, work around the limits and make something beautiful from the WORLD'S FIRST HD CAMERA below 5 thousand bucks...

Peace.

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Old August 18th, 2003, 07:57 AM   #13
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Interesting thread

Thanks for the input.
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Old August 18th, 2003, 09:21 AM   #14
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Hi Ken,

I live in London and was wondering if you knew whether a 25p PAL version of the HD10 was in the pipeline at all?

Many thanks,

P.
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Old August 18th, 2003, 02:28 PM   #15
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<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : Reality check?... we should rush out and buy this "work in progress" instead of waiting a year or two for more mature products? Personally, I can wait a little longer, and in the meantime concentrate on getting the best possible results from current DV technology.

Don't get me wrong, the HD10 is a fascinating product and I wish JVC well with it. I enjoy reading about everyone's experiences. But there just seem to be too many issues for me to plunk down that kind of money on top of my existing investment in cameras, accessories, computers, hard drives, etc. I'll wait to see what Canon and Sony come out with (whenever that may be), then probably wait another year for them to work out all the bugs. I don't need to be the first kid on the block with an HD camera ;-) -->>>

I agree...I have yet to make ANY money on this as I can't adequately edit with it, either through the JVC software or FCP. We're awaiting some new plug-ins that aren't $1000 +. My first payment is coming up and the most I've done is two interviews in DV mode (looks not-so-good, but not like crap) for my DVD, and I'm beginning to feel like I should've waited to buy. $3400 is a lot of money for a guy making under $30k a year AND going to college...

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