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Old September 5th, 2003, 04:40 PM   #1
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Manual Exposure, .m2t files, and DV mode?

Hello all:

We just purchased a JY-HD10u and have quickly run into a number of issues that we can't solve. I have read most of the posts here, but still have no solid conclusions on several topics. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I know we're on the bleeding edge, but I'm getting dizzy from the loss of blood.



First, as you know, most professional cameras and prosumer models, such as the XL-1, have direct exposure(iris) and f-stop settings located in close proximity to one another and are easily accessable when shooting, but not on this camera. We have had no success in adjusting the exposure when using the manual exposure wheel on the camera's left side, and the exposure is unaffected when adjusting the settings from -10 up to +10.

Additionally, the "real" f-stop setting button on the rear of the camera is described as an "effect" in the manual, and although it does change the exposure as expected, it also creates a blurry, slow motion effect, rendering the function entirely useless and unnecessay. I assume then that it's not really a true f-stop setting, am I correct?



Second, we laos have encountered the same issues I have read numerous times on this forum, pertaining to the aquisition and editing of footage with the .2mt format. We had success first try when capturing via firewire, but as we all know it only creates the dreaded .m2t file type, that is unrecognized by every standard PC editing and manipulation software we tried. In fact, we have tried every suggestion on this forum to convert the file type to something usable in other programs. Including the unusable software that comes with the camera. We've tried converting from .mt2 with Windows Media Encoder 9, Video LAN, Premiere, After Effects, Media Studio Pro, and a few other obscure programs we found, with no success. We even tried these techniques with the extension changed to .mpg with no result.

The most frustrating issue, the LE edit program that comes bundled with the camera allows for format conversion from the timeline, but you are restricted to one output size with all other options greyed out, and worse, there is no realtime playback of the timeline or scrubbing capability. When I dug deeper into the issue, I discovered that the company that developed the program for JVC is going to charge $4800 for the full version. That's a giant leap from an LE version. It then appears that the only other PC solution comes with a $1200 price tag in the name of Cineform, and they don't give out trial version without an equally valued deposit. Is this our only option?



Third, I keep reading recommendations not to shoot the camera in the DV mode. I understand that this is a single CCD camera, but JVC touts that the camera captures more pixels in DV mode than the XL1 with 340,000 pixels vs. 270,000 pixels. They also say that the camera captures 840,000 pixels in HD mode. It makes me wonder how this is possible, yet the image quality in the DV mode appears to be lesser quality than the XL1. This has us confused and scratching our heads. Is the DV mode nothing more than an LE version of real DV?



The bigger question we are asking ourselves here is how do we shoot in the HD mode, capture to a usable format, without jumping through major time consuming and impractical hoops, edit the project, add visual FX and composit chroma keyed shots, then re-export, without losing quality and using massive amounts of storage space.

As much as I like this camera, it just doesn't it feel as though JVC has chosen a format for compression that relies on any form of standardized, existing software. I feel they should just include the full scale capture and editing software with the camera and charge a higher price so as not to mislead any of us who believe in the technology and want to use it to its potential.

It's like buying an economy car that requires fuel made from pure gold, yet it won't it be available for another year.

Al that said, I have high hopes and look to the future when the images we shoot on the HD10 are usable for real world, ecenomic HD production.


Best Regards,

Jim Clark
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Old September 5th, 2003, 05:54 PM   #2
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Hi Jim, I've not enough time right now to answer all your questions, but on the PC your choices for editing are the Womble editor (www.womble.com $120) the Cineform plugin for Premiere ($1200), and Vegas +DVD. Forget the the software that comes with the camera, it's basically junk. On the Mac you can uncompress the footage and do an offline in any format you choose in FCP, but it's time consuming to process the stuff. Most of the camera questions you should find answers to on this forum if you search.

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Old September 6th, 2003, 12:13 PM   #3
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"As much as I like this camera, it just doesn't it feel as though JVC has chosen a format for compression that relies on any form of standardized, existing software."

A few years back it was a bitch to edit DV. Firewire had problems with win98se, Premiere 5.1 needed a patch type work around to use DV, hard drives were small and costly, the software bundled with my cam sucked, ect..
Also it's not just JVC. This will be the new standard format.

"Third, I keep reading recommendations not to shoot the camera in the DV mode. I understand that this is a single CCD camera, but JVC touts that the camera captures more pixels in DV mode than the XL1 with 340,000 pixels vs. 270,000 pixels. They also say that the camera captures 840,000 pixels in HD mode. It makes me wonder how this is possible, yet the image quality in the DV mode appears to be lesser quality than the XL1. This has us confused and scratching our heads. Is the DV mode nothing more than an LE version of real DV?"

Everything in this cam was designed around its 720p/480p modes. It does DV because it can. If you want a DV cam, JVC offers a few of the best.


"First, as you know, most professional cameras and prosumer models, such as the XL-1, have direct exposure(iris) and f-stop settings located in close proximity to one another and are easily accessable when shooting, but not on this camera. We have had no success in adjusting the exposure when using the manual exposure wheel on the camera's left side, and the exposure is unaffected when adjusting the settings from -10 up to +10.

Additionally, the "real" f-stop setting button on the rear of the camera is described as an "effect" in the manual, and although it does change the exposure as expected, it also creates a blurry, slow motion effect, rendering the function entirely useless and unnecessay. I assume then that it's not really a true f-stop setting, am I correct?"

Can someone who owns this cam help out here? I haven't read of anyone having such durastic problems. Is it broken?
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Old September 6th, 2003, 03:31 PM   #4
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Jim,

Had a couple thoughts (I have HD10). You should get exposure changes as you run from to +10 to -10 on the exposure control. Double check to see that you're using the right procedure - Pg44-45 in the manual. You can't use the exposure control at the same time as the aperture - shutter priority button on the rear.

Also, after reading many disparaging remarks about DV mode I tried D. wide mode (Pg 38). It looks much better, and is wider angle too.

Just some thoughts - good luck!
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Old September 7th, 2003, 12:12 AM   #5
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Vegas Video works fine with the M2T files. If you have a problem, just try changing them to MPG.
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Old October 11th, 2003, 08:27 PM   #6
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Hi.

I have no problems importing m2t into vegas video.
The only silly detail that puzzled me was that they don't show in the vegas 'explorer' window, so i used to rename them to mpeg. But there's a switch on that window to show "all files".

Evermore, I don't like the slowness trying to real-time edit in vegas, i assume that's because the MPEG2 decompression. Also, I need to edit the footage in after effects so I'm looking to convert the m2t files to a better codec for editing.

I've been trying PicVideo software MJPEG codec. It is very fast and at high quality rates it's almost the same quality as the original MPEG2 at some twice the size (but still very slow if compared with uncompressed video).

Now I was looking for a freeware or shareware tool that would allow me to batch-convert the m2t files to AVI. I'm doing this in Vegas. Any ideas?

Emilio
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Old October 11th, 2003, 08:44 PM   #7
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I recently posted some pointers on Win-based process of HD capturing, converting, editing, and outputting back to m2t.

Please refer to Dr Strangelove... topic in this forum for details. It gives you a complete solution for Wintel machines.

I don't have any expertise in Mac area - seems like you should ask Steve Mullen in that case. He also is an expert in how to make use of the cam's crippled controls - buy his Shooting Guide, recommended. (I'm not affiliated with Steve.)
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Old October 11th, 2003, 08:56 PM   #8
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<<You can't use the exposure control at the same time as the aperture - shutter priority button on the rear.>>


David,

I am aware this camcorder has more consumer-like controls. But, can I set the aperture AND after that set the shutter manually?

When you say I can use the exposure control and aperture at same time, you are just talking about the buttons, right?

Emilio
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Old October 11th, 2003, 09:23 PM   #9
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Jim it sounds like you purchased the HD10 before you read about the camera or HDV editing.

Don't feel bad -- you aren't the first. I've had several folks order 4HDV who had no idea of HOW to shoot or HOW to edit.

And, JVC does nothing to make it easier.

So before you get involved in worring about specific software -- order my HD1/HD10 Shooting Guide. It will teach you to shoot with the camera. This should be your number 1 concern. Especially because you are having far too many problems. As others have posted, it's not that hard to use the camera.

The Guide has a chapter on editing solutions. From reading that you can make informed choices. You should be able to edit with the bundled application -- it's not that hard-- really. If you find this too hard -- the approaches posted here will be even more difficult.

IF you have the right PC you can simply get Aspect HD. It definitely does the job. I'm not sure why CineForm doesn't allow a trial without your credit card since it only runs for 30-days.

But, I would do some reading before moving forward.
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